1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Do you believe in Jevons Paradox?

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by burritos, Jun 16, 2008.

  1. Celtic Blue

    Celtic Blue New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 4, 2008
    2,224
    139
    0
    Location:
    Midwest
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Granted this is an old part of the thread...but the problem is not CFL's it's the choice of brands (plus the fact that they are PAR's.) Sam's sells GE, and Costco is Feit. Waste a money in either case, especially for PAR/reflector/enclosed globe types incandescent or CFL. A standard spiral CFL costs about 60% less than the other CFL's mentioned above.

    I've got standard spiral CFL's in all of my bathroom lights now. Haven't had a failure in any of them in the past year.

    I also have CFL's in my garage door openers. So far no failures.

    I'm not inclined to believe the lifetime of good CFL's in these types of fixtures is particularly short based on what I've seen so far.

    And no, I don't believe in the paradox in this situation. It can be an unwitting result, but it requires that the demand for a product or service be endless or bounded by incremental cost of the resource. With respect to lighting or travel for example, the demand is not endless. I'm not going to run my lighting 4x more frequently, nor am I going to drive twice as many miles per year simply because I could at the same cost. Many of us would actually find the loss of an additional 300 hours a year to driving to be unwelcome rather than desirable.
     
  2. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,073
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    This is the key point, right here in one paragraph.

    Tom
     
  3. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2006
    4,946
    252
    0
    Location:
    California
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    I live in Socal where there's lots to do, but it's all spread out. While I might not be driving 4x's that I usually do with a prius, I find that when making the decision to take a 100-200 mi day trip to the zoo, disneyland, the aquarium, legoland, or the snow for my toddler to experience, the amount of gas used is not even a consideration. If it were, I might just walk him to the YMCA play gym where arguably he'd be just as entertained.
     
  4. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    If you read the fine print on SOME CFLs you will see that they are only warranted for base DOWN installation. Base up installation often times can (and does) lead to over heating of the electronic ballast of the bulb.

    I have been 100% CFL for over ten years. I have had two failures, and these were both in a base UP lamp. I also buy good quality, glass bulb shaped bulbs rather than the cheap ice cream cone bulbs.

    Icarus
     
  5. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

    Joined:
    May 22, 2009
    9,083
    5,795
    0
    Location:
    Undisclosed Location
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Really what do I know? Since when I first saw the title to this thread I thought it was a discussion about a 70's folk rock band. I could of swore I saw Jevons Paradox play live....
     
  6. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    We drive our prius more, but that's because it's more efficient. So instead of driving the Outback, we take the prius. The overall miles are the same, but less fuel is consumed.
     
  7. mgb4tim

    mgb4tim Noob

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    1,153
    111
    9
    Location:
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    how did I sleep through 27 credits of economics and not hear of Jevon's Paradox
     
  8. PriusLewis

    PriusLewis Management Scientist

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    1,002
    84
    7
    Location:
    Denver Metro
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    This one has me thinking in my "Management Scientist" mode. Here's a good definition of efficiency (as used by economists):

    There are two concepts of efficiency: Technological efficiency occurs when it is not possible to increase output without increasing inputs. Economic efficiency occurs when the cost of producing a given output is as low as possible.

    Technical Efficiency would be getting more yield in gasoline out of a barrel of oil. I believe we've pretty much reached the end of that trail. To increase economic efficiency, the cost of turning oil into gas would have to come down.

    However, in the case of gasoline, it isn't efficiency that sets the price, it's supply and demand and taxes. The cost of gasoline at retail at break-even (without tax) is probably what it sells for in Saudi, or about 30 cents a gallon.

    All of which is missing the point - the product isn't gasoline (or diesel or electricity) it's transportation (in cost per unit of travel). So the total cost of the product would be fuel, the vehicle, maintenance, and many other related transportation costs. In the third world, personal transportation costs are prohibitive to many due to the vehicle, usually, more than the fuel (although fuel certainly plays a part). To use up oil quicker, we would need to get more people on the road. Vehicles like the Tata might do more than any change in the price of gas.
     
  9. richard schumacher

    richard schumacher shortbus driver

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2004
    7,663
    1,037
    0
    Location:
    United States
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    This may be a selection effect and not direct evidence of Jevon's paradox. It's reasonable that people bought new Priuses because they knew they'd be driving a lot and therefore would especially benefit from good fuel economy, and so naturally their used Priuses tend to have many miles per year.

    Without other data I find it hard to believe that significant numbers of people would drive additional thousands of miles per year just because they're spending less per mile.
     
  10. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Before I bought a Prius, I had a Forester. (24 MPG) My wife has a company owned Xterra (18 MPG) for which they provide gas. When we drove for her business, we took 'her' car, when we drove for my business we took my car.

    Now I own a Prius, (42 MPG) and the company is allowing us to take my car on her business trips and providing gas. This does not mean we are driving more, but it does make for one more Prius that will never be a low mileage used car. (18,500 miles since April)
     
  11. drees

    drees Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2007
    1,782
    247
    0
    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    Vehicle:
    2008 Prius
    Hey Jimbo - just be aware that they should be reimbursing you for more than just gas - there's maintenance, depreciation and wear & tear involved with driving in addition to fuel costs.
     
  12. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2009
    12,470
    6,862
    2
    Location:
    Greenwood MS USA
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    In theory, this is true, but then I have to drive/ride in her Xterra, and get 16 gallons every 290 miles. Breaks my heart. 10 gallons every 420 miles makes me feel so much less guilty.
     
  13. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    It's like my bother in law was getting mileage back in the 1980's. I don't remember what he was getting paid, but he drove a VW Rabbit diesel @50mph when diesel was ~$.75/gallon. He cleared enough every year to buy a new car if he wanted to! He drove that Rabbit to 400k miles, then donated it to some charity!

    Icarus

    PS Drives an 07 Prius now!
     
  14. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,566
    11,188
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Part of it can be recoup when filing taxes. You should be able to take the standard mileage rate deduction, around 40 cents a mile, minus what the company reimbursed you.
     
  15. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,577
    8,019
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Let me know when you find some of moderate quality / warmness / work on a rheostat / and wide angle, for under $80 a piece.
     
  16. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
  17. cobby034

    cobby034 New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2009
    4
    0
    0
    Location:
    dsa
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    I can not believe it
     
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    19,577
    8,019
    54
    Location:
    Montana & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Been there:

    [​IMG]PAR38-20W

    Initial Cost (fob) = $154
    Labour (replacement bulbs)= $0
    Energy Costs over 50,000hrs
    Power Consumption 20 watts


    But thanks for trying to be helpfull, anyway. Their pricing is EXACTLY what I'm talking about. The good ones are over $100 a piece, have a very cool kelvin (color) rating (when you call them), no rheostat applications, etc. (sigh) ... but maybe they'll have it together within a couple years. Heck, often they don't even use less power than a CFL, as in the example above!

    One of the other 'jokes' is the LED warranty ... typically a year or two, if you're lucky ... YET, the retailers / manufacturers LOVE to quote 50,000 hours. That's great IF they last that long ... but many won't even come close to that, in the written warranty ... they just TALK about how long they last. At least CFL manufacturers WILL take the warranty out to 5 years in many instances.

    :focus:

    But Yes, I find Jevon has our home pegged. We got more efficient, and now use more. What with our PV panel system, energy efficint refrigerators / front load washer, CFL's etc we have no problem keeping the house brighter than we really need to.

    The most recent example of our "waste" of power, due to our higher efficiency (see The Correct Answer website if you don't know what I'm talking about) is a HUGE uninterupted power supply that we just bought. Power goes out, and we won't loose power. It' what us kooky 'preparedness' folk do. The downside? It'll draw 200 watts, around the clock, 24/7 ... 4.7ish-Kwh per day. Yep, I'd say Jevon happens.

    .
     
  19. icarus

    icarus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2007
    4,884
    976
    0
    Location:
    earth
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    N/A
    Just wait,, the LED revolution is just around the corner. Within 5 years I predict it will give CFLs a run for their money per lumen and colour!

    Evidence X-mas lights. A walk down the aisle at Lowes the other day, thousands of strands of LED lights as low as $.99. The first set bought a couple of years ago were >$20.

    Icarus

    PS. To Hill, your large UPS is the crux of ongoing debates in PV circles. That is, for the few times that the power is likely to go out and for how long, is the customer better off buying a energy ef standby generator and a stock of fuel? My argument has always been that the grid is pretty damn reliable, and when it goes out it is rare, AND it is usually back up fairly quickly. So for the money spent on hybrid Pv systems and USB, one might be better off spending that extra money on a few more watts of PV and a Honda genny. A 3kw Honda EU that is big enough to run any house (exclusive of A/C or electric heat can be had for ~$1500. What's a UPS big enough to provide real loads for a long time cost, and how often does the battery need replacing? In our world, hybridizing a Pv system to run on batteries when the power is off is a nice idea, but usually doubles the cost,,, if not triples it.

    Now if you worry about earthquakes or hurricanes keeping the power off for weeks you have to make up your own mind.

    Icarus
     
  20. tripp

    tripp Which it's a 'ybrid, ain't it?

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2005
    4,717
    79
    0
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Vehicle:
    2005 Prius
    To counter Hill, we have continuously improved efficiency and simply use less energy.

    Also, depending on Hill's systems actual output, if he's negative consumption and everyone went to that, we'd use way less energy. The thrust of Jevon's thesis is that overall energy consumption goes up. Hill, are you using more energy now because you're more efficient? I'm guessing that the answer is no.