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Forest related topics

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by tochatihu, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Some interesting forestry coments appear in the Gen X thread, unfortunately spiced with a lot of rancor. I am quite interested in the former; who else?

    Could include
    Forest carbon storage
    Old growth
    Compete for land and water with other land uses
    Climate effects other than carbon
    monspecific vs. diverse forests
    Direct product values (lumber, latex, palm oil etc.)
    Subtle values (ecosystem services, diversity)
    Recent changes in growth and mortality are related to what?
    Future forests with higher CO2 and altered temps and water

    Kicking off with Yude Pan's 2011 paper in science, indicating a current net C uptake about 2 PgC/year. Equals 7.3 Pg of CO2. at current Euro "market prices" this sequestration is (would be) worth 50 billion $; ant Australian "legislated prices" 150 billion.

    Maybe the trees merit hugging, after all.
     
  2. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    I've been looking at getting siding put on my house. CertainTeed produces an excellent analysis of the environmental footprint of their siding versus other options. By far, the lowest carbon footprint was old-fashionied wood siding. Presumably that was for the sequestration value of storing the wood, as siding.

    But the time perspective for that CertainTeed analysis was only 30 years. In effect, that assumes the building would continue to stand (in perpetuity).

    And to me, that's one of two key factors in the analysis of forests and carbon sequestration.
    1) How much new forest is needed to make a significant difference.
    2) Where is that stored carbon going to be 200 years from now?

    1) Current sequestration is already included in current trends. The land requirements for substantial new sequestration are large.

    A US southern pine forest absorbs about 1 ton C per year (until it reaches maturity). So we would need about 2.5 giga-acres of new forest to offset annual US (net) C emissions. But the US as a whole is just 2.3 giga-acres. And pretty much anything that can grow something useful is already being used to grow something useful.

    So it seems unlikely that we'd be able to find enough currently unused land, suitable for growing trees, that it would make a difference. This isn't a slam on forest sequestration, it's an illustration of how much fossil fuel we burn, relative to fuel that would be available solely via photosynthesis.

    2) If we're talking about an additional stream of sequestration (annual carbon uptake) out of a fixed amount of land, in perpetuity, we eventually need a place to store the resulting lumber indefinitely, else you've just kicked the problem down the road a bit. Because the emitted CO2 has a long lifetime.

    Based on the best currently available science, if you burn some fossil fuel now, my recollection is that half the resulting CO2 remains in the atmosphere at 50 years, 30% remains at 200 years, and then 20% remains for thousands of years.

    (Clearly the long run results are modeled, but are backed by paleo observations. Even the short-run results have observational data suggesting they are roughly right -- Google "bomb carbon" to see the decay rate of the C14 spike induced by the 1962 above-ground nuclear test ban treaty. For a variety of reasons, the decay of the C14 spike is not an accurate proxy for the decay for additional C12 in the atmosphere, but it serves to show an upper bound on effective decay rate of additional C12 in the atmosphere.)

    So, my acre of southern pine absorbs its ton per year for (say) 90 years, then the forest is mature. If you can keep that mature forest standing, then you've stored that 90 years of emissions. If you want to keep on emitting, then you have to log the forest, store the wood in perpetuity, and re-grow the forest.

    Either way, there's a permanence issue. The seventh-generation question is: Where is that newly-created wood going to be 200 years from now?

    So, as with the siding on my house, I question the permanence of the storage. We're just going to use any putative sequestration as an excuse to burn more carbon. And while we might achieve balance between CO2 release and sequestration this year, that will not be true down the road. And with a lot of sequestration plans, in 100 years or 1000 years, both the CO2 from the fossil fuel (or a third of it, anyway) and the CO2 we though we'd sequestered, will be back in the atmosphere.

    E.g., in 200 years, it's a fair bet that the wood siding on my house will have reverted to CO2. So the CertainTeed analysis is wrong about the long-run impact. And the net effect is that we'll just use sequestration of this type as a way to kick the problem down the road and let our grandchildren deal with it.

    So I feel about forests the way I feel about (e.g. ) white roofs as a solution, or reductions in methane emissions as a solution, or reductions in black carbon emissions. They don't match the permanence of the CO2 emissions.

    This is the article that turned my thinking around. I think this guy nailed it:

    RealClimate: Losing time, not buying time

    Ocean fertilization, where the C will sit on the ocean floor for millenia, OK, that works. Pump it underground with some high likelihood it'll stay there, for millenia, that works. But buying temporary relief from (space-based mirrors, injection of stratospheric sulfates, white roofs, black carbon reductions, methane reductions ...) is a bad bargain for future generations. Because we can't keep the offset going for as long as the CO2 will remain in the atmosphere.

    Where forests stand in that continuum, I don't know. But given the projected changes in the climate, I'd argue that they are too fragile to be counted as permanent additional carbon reservoirs. At least, not on the time scale that current CO2 emissions are likely to remain in the air.
     
  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Something we have in Alabama are wet-lands and swamps where annually a lot of organics collect. Yet I don't think of them 'rising' enough to suggest effective sequestration. Yet I remember photos of German 'brown coal' fueling a power plant. I'm also remembering the Cascade forests with such thick carpets that you can't really see 'dirt.'

    I'm wondering, pure speculation, to what extent the non-wood surface of a forest might contributed to more permanent sequestration?

    Come the fall, a hundred or so pounds of pine needles will fall on our front yard. If a high wind comes at the right time, the yard is transformed from grass to 'pine needles.' So we dutifully rake them to towards the street and then the 'pine needle fairies' show up with bags and rakes and ask if they can have them. We are always gracious. But I have no doubt they don't go into a fire but add a fractional millimeter to someone's patch.

    We tend to see the trees of the forest but the spaces between the trunks look to get a significant load of organics even after maturity. I don't see that material being harvested . . . or did I miss something?

    Bob Wilson
     
  4. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Chogan2, I think 2 tons C/acre year is closer for those forest types, but I agree that there is no practical US afforestation that would balance US emissions. Pacala and Sokolow, McKinsey, etc. think in terms of 'wedges'. Several actions that can each do a fraction of the C balancing. Miko Kirschbaum also agrees with you that we can't 'do it all' with forests.

    But, you replace forest where you have suitable land that is not being used for another purpose. If it had been recently cleared of forest, so much the better, because that transition triggers loss of soil carbon that it can take decades. If it can provide other ecosystem services (erosion control, etc.) also good.

    Carbon counters have numbers for the turnover of wood C. Burning is obviously fast, paper is pretty fast, decomposition in situ in the forest slower, and built products, the slowest. I think your wood siding would be in a 40-50 year turnover category.

    There are 2 or 3 published studies about 'near-permanent' wood sequestration. Soil or landfill burial, sink in water, put in unused mines. They all seem energy intesive to me, but the ideas are on the table.

    Your acre of SYP may have stored more than that (in the soil), depending on what the soil was like when the trees started. Some forests/climates can store a lot that way. On global scale, forests have lost a lot of soil C because we have replaced old (better said mosaic) forests with young ones.

    A book published in 1984 asserts >1400 PgC lost from soils is the 7000-yr 'ag period. Not based on a lot of data, and I don't think much effort has been put into refining that. Skee Houghton has done, for the 1850-current period. Ruddiman goes long, but focuses on the above ground C.

    Bob gets poetic about forest floors. Wherever you find that carpet, I can promise that there is even more C in the mineral soil beneath. But you won't find the carpet in summer-dry forests. There it dries and functions as the fire spreader.

    You could dump a lot of organic matter (like those needles) into a wetland and slow down their decomposition. Low oxygen in the water limits what the fungi and bacteria can do. But they can trick you and release methane instead, which is a losing proposition in terms of infrared absorption.

    So, your pine needle faries do what? make (slow) compost for their own patch? In the long run you are giving them a lot of Ca and Mg and some of your N,P,K. Depending on your soil that may not be a good long-term plan. The Germans raked needles from large areas of the Black Forest to make it more 'tidy'. They created a soil very sensitive to acid rain and some of the trees died. Not tidy.

    Of the 60 PgC of net pimary production on land, more than half is leaves& needles that fall and decompose in situ. Down and up, every year, and not just C. Nutrients that trees obtain from soils are nearly exclusively invested in leaves. Wood is a sturdy 'nutrient desert'. This contributes to its longevity on the forest floor when the tree does finally decide to lay down.

    If you could just know where&when, you'd never park under the wrong one :)