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    CraigCSJ Member

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    The Prius PHV Owners Manual says on pages 47 and 93 that the traction battery has a limited service life and its capacity, meaning ability to hold a charge, will reduce with time and use. It also says that this reduced capacity will decrease the EV driving range but vehicle performance will not significantly become worse.

    Owners can suppress this capacity reduction by following these five practices:

    1. Avoid parking in sun on a hot day with the traction battery fully charged.
    2. Avoid frequent and sudden EV acceleration or deceleration.
    3. Avoid EV driving near the maximum EV speed of 62 MPH.
    4. When not driving for a long time, discharge the traction battery to the level where only HV driving is possible.
    5. Use the charging times, as much as possible, to fully charge the traction battery immediately before driving.

    To quote from Page 47:
    "The hybrid battery (traction battery) has a limited service life.

    "The hybrid battery (traction battery) capacity (the ability to hold a charge) reduces with time and use in the same way as other rechargeable batteries. The extent at which capacity reduces changes drastically depending on the environment (ambient temperature, etc.) and usage conditions, such as how the vehicle is driven and how the hybrid battery (traction battery) is charged.

    "This is a natural characteristic of lithium-ion batteries, and is not a malfunction. Also, even though the EV driving range decreases when the hybrid battery (traction battery) capacity reduces, vehicle performance does not significantly become worse.

    "In order to reduce the possibility of the capacity reducing, follow the directions listed on P. 93, 'Capacity reduction of the hybrid battery (traction battery)'."
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    mozdzen Member

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    Yikes. I guess don't use it on the highway. makes sense in a way. Anyone know what the guaranteed EV range over time is? That 11-15 isn't huge to start with. Here in Az, that means no parking on the top level of the parking garage during summer.
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    sxotty Member

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    The warranty language isn't in the wild yet as far as I know. I doubt they will warranty the capacity though, especially in CA. I think it more likely they warranty performance like the Leaf.
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    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    I've heard some mention of using the EV button to force it out of EV mode if, for example, on a 20 mile cruise at 55 MPH.

    True or not? Someone knows. Would be pretty silly to recommend avoiding cruise at 60 MPH in EV yet not have a way to put it in hybrid mode to preserve the EV range for when you exit the highway.

    In other words, could I EV for 2 miles out to 880 South (with full charge), put in hybrid mode and cruise 58 MPH on gasoline for 24 miles into downtown San Jose, get off on first street and put it back into EV mode?

    I think the answer is yes, by cycling the EV button, but not sure how these things really work. My only experience in Prius PHV demo was with 1.3 range left, and the gas engine was briefly coming on by merely accelerating gently from a stop. Think it was trying to start hybrid mode.
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    cycledrum PSOCSOASP

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    1. Got carport with your charger?
    2. This car is not for leadfoots
    3. It's not an EV so suck it up and use gas
    4. No problem, just run hybrid mode before 2 week park at airport
    5. Can you program it to start charging at 4am?
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    Allannde Just a Senior

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    Craig,

    You have done an excellent job of summarizing what Toyota has said and Toyota has it priorities straight. Reality is reality.

    This does not mean that we must panic. The beauty of the plug in is that the worst thing which can happen is that we will use a little more gasoline over time. We can still drive the car safely and comfortably.

    Should we follow the guidelines set forth? Sure, if it is convenient, but not if it means that the car has become less useful to us. Life is a tradeoff. Perfection is a word which we can find in the dictionary.

    The basic point is that the hybrid (traction) battery will be warranted against defects in manufacture but not from natural degradation. This is a consumable item like tires and the other kind of batteries. The problem is that it has yet to be learned how long these traction batteries will last and it is quite likely that the way they are treated will be a large factor in that life. So hope of some future warranty against degradation is remote.

    These issues will affect those who have invested in all electric cars more. If they do not have a difficult time, then we probably will not either. The heat issue is why I chose a white car.
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    bisco cookie crumbler

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    how does this differ from volt or leaf, are they not li-on? this proly only applies to people keeping their cars for a couple hunert thousand miles. and, to people who someday will be buying used high mileage vehicles and wondering how many more miles the batteries have left in them.
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    hill High Fiber Member

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    "Limited Service Life" . . . ( :rolleyes: ) you mean as in Toyota's 10 years / 150,000 mile hybrid waranty? Oh boy ... I'm certainly wringing my hands now! Entering my mid 50's now. I too, have a "Limited Service Life". Somehow though I'm guessing both of our limited service life's will make due. Seriously, any mention in the manual of such obvious issues (just like the Volt ... Just like the Leaf ... the RAV-4ev ... the Tesla .... heck for THAT matter - any ICE too) is only there because there will always be some poor slob out there that really doesn't have a clue that everything on the earth has a limited service life. Like Barny Fief used to say (on the Mayberry RFD TV show), "move along ... nothing to see here".

    .
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    Allannde Just a Senior

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    Hill

    I don't take issue with you here, but I would offer a certain perspective.

    I have an acquaintance who "leadfoots" his EV and I would not choose to be the second owner of his car. I take care of my cars and people stand in line when they go up for sale. From the picture of your car (which looks just like my present car) it looks like you take care of it. Some folks get pleasure from that. It does not matter to others.

    If you like to take care of stuff, it is good to know how.

    Regards

    Allan
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    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    Some cars are designed for leadfoots and built with appropriate components. If you buy a used Tesla Roadster that has not been kept in storage all its life, it's a good bet it has been leadfooted pretty regularly. And the very large battery pack means that each individual cell experiences less stress because the work is divided among so many cells.

    But as was noted above, the battery pack is a consumable item. Tesla expects that the typical Roadster driver will probably want a new pack at around the seven-year mark. And while I respect and admire folks who take good care of their stuff, I bought my car to drive it. I will conscientiously have all service done. But I'll also enjoy it to the max.

    The Prius lends itself better to conservative driving habits and will best meet or excede expected operation if driven conservatively. There's really not much point in buying a Tesla Roadster if you are a featherfoot. Different cars for different objectives. :rockon:
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    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The Volt has active Temperature management. When plugged in, it uses wall power to keep the battery temps in the ideal range. If not plugged in and it gets too hot and the battery is "full" it will actively cool it (using the battery) to keep it safe from harm. If the TMS depletes enough charge it will stop managing it as the temps won't hurt it then. (Well Leaf just hopes its not a problem.. its really in the same situation as the PHV with respect to temp and storage).

    In terms of high-discharge rates both the Volt and the Lead have much larger pack so that the "leadfoot" is drawing a modest amount of current from from say 288 cells in the Volt, rather than a lot from 56 cells in a PHV pack. Same is true with absorbing the power from agressive Regen. Spreading the power demands/dumping over more cells means each cell is under much less stress.


    The charging just before use is true for most batteries, including the Volt. I charge mostly off peak but the charging algorithm is complex enough that I draw about 9kw between 10:30 and 5:30 (off peak and cheapest) and then with the "delayed charging" the car finishes its charging just around 8am when I want to drive it. (Between5:30 and 7 it often does not charge at all). This way the battery is warm (better for range in the winter).
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    drash Active Member

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    Yep. Page 9 of the owner's manual.

    All of these recommendations are for people that will drive very aggressively in very warm climates all the time. Me I'm going to just use it and drive normally. It'll last for years. I for one will not worry.
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    mozdzen Member

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    Hopefully in 5 or 7 yrs, we'll be able to replace the battery pack with something that has 2x or 4x the capacity - Toyota - please think of this.

    But going 60mph for 10 mins on the highway seems like a waste of the EV mode (unless this is more than 75% of your trip). The gasoline engine will do quite well. Save the EV mode for speeds at which the gasoline engine is less efficient.

    Question: if you deplete the 4.4 KWHr battery, and have a lot of downhill driving to do, will this battery regenerate after the regular hybrid battery becomes full? Are they two separate batteries, or is our familiar hybrid mode battery just a certain fraction of this 4.4KWHr battery?
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    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The production Prius PHV uses 1 battery and can regen into it. (How much is currently not stated, but there is no reason to presume it is anything less than the full 2.4kw of usable battery range).
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    mozdzen Member

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    The battery is stated as 4.4 KWHr. I assume that is useable capacity?
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    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The 2.4 is current best estimate I've seen, based on a report (in Japanese) of 3kw from the wall to charge and standard charging losses. We'll see real customer data in a week or so.

    4.4 is the actual battery pack and you don't use all of it or you will kill the battery much faster. This is normal. For comparison the VOlt as a 16kw pack and only provides 10.4kw usable.
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    Tracksyde Member

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    No, that is the total pack capacity. The Japanese PiP says 3kWh for a full charge.. with charging losses, I guess its estimated there is 2.4kWh of useable capacity.
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    drash Active Member

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    You could "ride" the brakes (lightly) for more regen while going downhill and might be recommended. Toyota might have adjusted the coast regen to be more aggressive (more drag when taking your foot off of the gas) and you will annoy the heck out of everybody if you are going slow downhill with no brake lights, let alone become a safety hazard. Course we'll find out from the 1st group to receive theirs if this is true.
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    mozdzen Member

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    OK - maybe here is where the difference comes from. The current Prius battery (non PiP) looks like it is nearly 1.8 KWHr so 4.4 - 1.8 = 2.6 KWHr left for the PiP. But that doesn't completely make sense, unless that battery is babied even more than this Li battery.

    "A sealed 38-module nickel metal hydride (NiMH) battery pack providing 273.6 volts, 6.5 A·h capacity and weighing 53.3 kg (118 lb)[80] is supplied by Japan's Panasonic EV Energy Co."

    So if that 1.8 KWHr battery gives us 2 miles of EV driving, it must be limited to only 20% of its capacity if the 2.6 KWHr is to be 7x that amount.

    It would be nice to see this summarized by someone who actually knows how the breakdown goes, as opposed to someone like me estimating.
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    mozdzen Member

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    Charging losses should be less than 5% as modern electronics are quite efficient. If they aren't then this is a big deal, but I don't see why they aren't closer to the 95-98% range, especially if you slow charge.

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