Is College a Scam?

My education has broadened my skillset, my worldview, and my life in general. Like others have stated, you have to be selective about which colleges/Universities you seek an education from. Some of the specialist schools are great for a select field but you don't get the broader education that just makes you a better person. Having attended both types of colleges I can say I am a firm believer in choosing a regular college/University over a specialized school.

Also keep in mind that an AA/AS is the 2000s version of a high school diploma and that a BS can trump a Masters if you have the interview skills and specific knowledge required for the job. I often hire people with a BS over those with a masters if they interview well and have the desired skills I need.

 

Agreed, but at the same time they should make just as much money available to students who want to learn a valuable trade. It's been said before, but it bears repeating - not everyone is meant to go to college.

My brother is a union electrician that makes nearly as much money as I do, with better benefits and a pension retirement all setup. Sure he gets his hands dirty every day, but my little bro is set for life.

A better person than whom? Sorry, that comment sounds like something that an elitist jerk would say. Not that I'm implying anything here.

My Master of Science, Bachelor of Science, and minor in math from a state university do not entitle me to look down on anyone for any reason. Personally, I'm more impressed by people who can build stuff, fix things, and cook because those are things that I cannot do myself.

 

Sorry you took this the wrong way but I mean it makes you a better person because you are more informed and generally develop better analytical skills, writing skills and you learn how to prioritize, organize and commit to something from start to finish. It was not meant as an elitist comment.

 

College isn't a scam. What is a scam is the spiraling of college tuitions, which have been increasing way beyond inflation since the 1980s.

Of course, the cost of all services in America has been increasing almost as rapidly. If it weren't for cheap Asian imports and cheap food, we would be in deep inflation doo-doo.

What has caused tuitions to become unaffordable for the middle class?
I've heard increased administration costs (America is now a land of lawyers, hedgefunders and administrators). Another factor has been the increase in women in athletics in coed schools--greatly increasing costs in athletic programs.

 

i understand Justin's comment. other than specialised degrees, most of college is geared towards presenting challenges to students who must use creative thinking and analytical skills to accomplish a task. a trade school basically just teaches you the trade. college allows you to hone skills that can help you be successful in life. after all, what does Speech do for you if you are not going to be a politician.

well, its required first year class because it teaches organizational skills, concise thinking and builds confidence. sure you dont have to have a degree to gain those skills in real life, but college helps and helps alot.

remember, a huge amount of successful people especially in the computer age did not complete college, but they were exceptional people. for the rest of us, a bit of guidance in a competitive atmosphere gives us valuable experience that one can keep and utilize for life

i think the title of this thread should be "What is College? and why is the US ignoring its role in the Future of this country"

nearly all countries that beat us in different areas insure that their talented students go to college. we do not and many who should be there are not while others due to fanily traditions that are should not

 

Recreation is an emotional need. It helps maintain mental health and improves productivity. Clearly, if this were a just society we would not have people who never have to work alongside people who are paid so little that they can never afford a vacation. But that's a separate issue. As Emperor of the World I would not ban recreation. On the contrary, I'd re-adjust wage scales so that everyone who works could afford to take vacations.

I gather that executive/administrative salaries at the tops of large corporations are ten to 100 times higher now, in inflation-adjusted dollars, than they were a few decades ago. I'd put an end to that. Incentives are important. But this is obscene. I wouldn't put an end to ski vacations.

 

...and when I was in college, there was a master mechanics course, master carpentry course, HVAC technician course, diesel mechanics course (I almost went for that one, myself), etc.

Don't make the assumption that "service business" owners are NOT college educated. It takes a great deal of specialized skills, often learned through college, trade school, apprenticeship programs, or a combination, to be successful.

College, like travel, serves to broaden the mind. I cannot fathom how that can be a bad thing for anyone, in any profession.

 

I would take exception to that. Most computer/IT folks I know...whether how successful...have a degree. The ones you hear about that did drop out of college before completing a degree were the moguls at the very start of a boom (be it the PC boom or the more recent internet/social networking boom). Michael Dell started his business as a freshman in college, and it was seeing so much growth that he no longer could spend time trying to get his pre-med degree (ditto for Bill Gates at Harvard). Malcom Gladwell's Outliers is an interesting read...he brings up some of the most influential computer pioneers (many born within one year), why many successful hockey players are born around the month of January, or why some populations have high life expectancy even without having "good" diets.

Historically, there are many examples of successful people who either did or didn't complete college, focused on a specialized degree, or even went through high school. You could have been able to become a doctor or a lawyer in the 19th century without a degree (most people are familiar with Lincoln being a lawyer without hardly any formal education...."surgeons" were still mainly barbers during this time).

Anyway, these are some examples I'm showing to add more disambiguation. If you're uncertain what you want to accomplish, then I think college is a given. If you're already interested in a particular area...then research the heck out of it to see what kind of further education/certification you need. The only modern day rich person I can think of who's a high school drop out is Richard Branson...there were many famous drop outs throughout history, but as we move past an industrial age....finding your specialized higher education degree is more important then ever before. To get back to Lincoln...even though he absorbed books with great veracity...he would not have had the same oportunities today if he still only had up to 1 year formal education.

 

It seems as though many of the posts here are discussing different issues. The way I read it, the question is whether or not college is a scam, not whether or not knowledge/education is a scam. There are many good arguments for achieving an education, but IMO fewer for the traditional college degree under modern circumstances. As I posted before, we are well into an education bubble that is immense in scope and consequence- in many ways much worse than the so-called "housing" bubble. In this sense, and for many (if not most) people, college is indeed a scam. It is often grossly overpriced, oversold and largely moved with federal paper from a government that is essentially insolvent.

Oh. And yes. This includes the favored debating point of some- TECHNICAL/SPECIALIZED degrees, not just liberal arts. That's right- engineers. Do the research. Currency trade trumps everything these days. Nothing is sacred.

 

Coming from the UK, I am aware of a few key scams in US college education:
- Required courses outside of the core area that don't provide skills necessary for the degree. It may broaden education but the US student and taxpayers are paying for those courses.
- Credit transfer fees.
- Very, very expensive required text books. When the book can be photocopied for 20% of the cover price, something is very, very wrong.

 

I wish I had time to look this up. In the last 6 months or so back, there was a survey done of various fields. The conclusion was that the average high school graduate of today will have 3 CAREERS in their lifetime and at least one of them will be in an area that has not even been invented yet. Everyone had best get used to continuous education.
I'm at work so I can't research it, maybe someone else can find it.

 

You seem loony. It is impossible to be "technical/specialized" without a degree. It is possible to obtain that degree and never be able to practice with it, but that is usually because you aren't intellectually powerful enough. Of a starting class of 100-120 engineers freshman year, 12 graduated with me with their bachelors. I was one of 2 that received 2 bachelors in the same time period. Of those 12, half found jobs within the year that I am aware of. Was there no demand? No there was and still is. But to be an engineer you need the degree AND the knowledge. I had 2 phone interviews that lasted an hour or so each, as well as an all day interview. Im not talking about a tour of the company and talking about it and that "b.s." (pardon the pun), but I mean every 30 minutes to hour a different senior level engineer came in the little 10x10 room and grilled me on every topic under the sun. Extremely difficult problems written on a whiteboard and asked to be solved. Easy current biasing problems to full on amplifier designs with caveats.This went on from 7.30am to 6pm. Then I was offered the job. If I didn't have my degree? lol, you must be kidding.

Those 12 that graduated and I were all pretty close during school and nomatter how "pious" it seems, people and friends do judge your intelligence. Or at least the intelligent ones do. Of the 6 that got jobs, 5 deserved it. The other 7 people did not and I doubt will find a good engineering positions with their current education unless they are recommended by a friend/family member.

The required "extra" courses outside the core are to broaden education. And yes it is somewhat funded by the federal and state governments, as well as the student. So what? School isn't about the cost, it is about the education. Having so many of these classes required I think is silly. But it did force me to take classes I never would have and I learned a great deal. I took greek, roman, and egyptian history classes. Super easy, almost no work load except papers and exams. However, I did learn more about them then I did before. Federal government should pick up the cheque for all university level higher education as it does for "K-12". Maybe some colleges too. If you don't value education, then you don't value your people.

I never had credit transfer fees. I had to pay in highschool to take AP (Advanced Placement, I forget the UK equivalent) tests which then transferred credit to my university but that was it.

The textbooks are expensive... if you buy new. Visit the library or campus bookstore and you will find used books. Unless you are in a technical degree, these will be super cheap. I had to buy 6 books for each of those history classes, all of which were under $10 used. And they came pre-highlighted with all the important bits! lol

For the engineering books, look online. Almost all of my books are "Internation Student Editions" which come in paperback and printed usually with just 2 colours and a giant label saying "not for sale in the US". Books that were $350 to $400 were shipped from Mumbai for $20 to $60. These books I still have for reference and I do find myself needing them every now and then. Deals can be found if you look hard enough.

 

Those extra classes can also be incredibly useful in life, even if they aren't in your job. Who would have thought the materials science course I took would be used - after all, all I do every day is computer programming. But, I end up using it all the time with the robotics team I volunteer with. What about that Thermodynamics course? It made things a lot easier to understand when I was looking at getting new windows for my house! Or the class in sign language... It's helped me to understand that culture and to communicate a little more effectively with deaf individuals I've encountered in day to day life.

 

due to the high cost of undergrad and medical school, and the shortage of doctors, there is some loose talk of a 6 year program right out of highschool.

 

I would rather have the old school doctor who knows what he is doing vs.the 6yr "I think I saw this in a textbook once" kind.

Of course everyone has to learn, just don't practice on me!

Last time I was in the hospital I had a "House"-style team of med school students. Every morning and sometimes in the afternoon they would all come in with their clip boards and ask me various questions and right them down. Then the professor (or head hauncho doctor guy) would thank me and they would leave. Of course they all discussed my situation in the hallway right outside my room and I could hear every word of what they were saying so it was not so comforting lol. But I am ok with that.

 

you were in a teaching hospital which are usually the best. but discussing your condition within earshot is a definite faux pas. the 6 year doctor is already being done in other parts of the world. they eliminate some of the extraneous 'horizon broadening' courses, because they already know what they want for the most part. i'm sure they churn out some fine doctors.

 

sounds reasonable.

 

right because most people are average. they need guidance and must usually learn using a pattern that has a proven track record for the masses and that is true for most professions.

but i know a guy, an ex-co worker. we were a 7 man IT support group where our job did not require much beyond the basics. maybe A+, Net + and an perhaps an MCE. most of the "brain" work was remotely access from the District HQ in Portland, so we only did the hands on stuff. well, this guy had nothing. started working at 18 on general customer service and went into IT on an internal job bid.

but this guy had knowledge. spent most of his youth hacking website to get free stuff because he could not afford to buy it.

well, to make a long story short. we upgraded from win 2000 to XP and they cut the IT staff to 2. so we were all out. he went and got a temp job working for Robert Half and is now working for a major Hospital as an IT guru and pretty much advanced to his position in about 3 years.

last time i talked with him about a year ago, he was up around $80K and pretty much designing a new system for them. they paid for him to get a dozen certs. which were not cheap, etc.

now, he did all this and sooner or later (if they have not already found out) they will realize he hacked his GED.


now, exceptional people make their own success. he is more of a Savant than super successful. he is a slob, pretty unorganized and not really all that together. it would be hard to make it like he did as fast as he did in a business environment when usually the first thing they look at is where your degree came from.

now, am i saying that you dont need training in IT; no , not at all. but i will say, i have very personal experiences with guys with a laundry list of alphabets behind their name that... ah dont