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Nissan Leaf Range update

Discussion in 'Nissan Hybrids and EVs' started by hampdenwireless, Jun 13, 2010.

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  1. hampdenwireless

    hampdenwireless Active Member

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    Electric Car Warning: Actual Mileage May Vary

    "When you're crawling along in city traffic in the summer with the air conditioning on, it's a different story. In that case (86 degrees and 6 mph on average) your battery will be dead in just 47 miles. But if you're a highway commuter in a heat wave—say 55 miles per hour, 95-degree heat and the air conditioning on—your range will be around 70 miles."
  2. evnow

    evnow Active Member

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    I found this interesting - "In that case (86 degrees and 6 mph on average) your battery will be dead in just 47 miles.". It means someone would be sitting/crawling in the traffic jam for 8 hours.

    Here is the other scenario mentioned.



    What I'd like to know are city & highway miles, like they show for ICE cars.
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    it will be interesting to see how non prius types accept/adjust to these variables.
  4. robbyr2

    robbyr2 New Member

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    I just need 33 miles... more FUD from the Detroit Bureau?
  5. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Just put it through the EPA City and Highway test.
  6. efusco

    efusco Troll Slayer Staff Member

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    How, exactly, do you propose they do that? It's based upon CO2 production and is done on a dynometer. It would have infinite range by those tests.

    That's part of the issue with EVs & PHEVs is they're having difficulty finding a standard to use for range.

    But I do understand your point, the Leaf range is based upon the LA4 standard, I think more education is needed about what those standards are and what they mean, then list ranges based upon 3 or 4 standards so people can look for the one that most closely fits their individual usage pattern.
  7. drees

    drees Senior Member

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    Seems like it. I like how they completely failed to mention that in all of those exact same situations, your ICE vehicle's range will also plummet.

    38mph cruise, 68*F - 138mi range, 3.5 hours - At a slightly higher speed, most ICE vehicles will also exceed their EPA ratings (typically 45-55mph).

    24mph avg, 77*F, suburban, no AC - 105 mi range, 4.4 hours - Most ICE vehicles will get slightly above city EPA rating

    6mph avg, 86*F, traffic - 47 mi range, 7.8 hours - ICE vehicles will get horrible fuel economy here, too. Wouldn't be surprised if it was half EPA city rating.

    55mph, 95*F, highway - 70 mi range, 1.3 hours - Not all that surprising, AC takes a lot of energy to run and ICE vehicles mask it's power consumption by being very inefficient.

    15mph, 14*F, traffic - 62 mi range, 4.1 hours - Kind of the opposite of the hot traffic situation - again, all vehicles will do poorly in this situation.

    Can't help but notice that a number of the author's other articles were quite bearish on EV-tech. Got to think that perhaps she's a bit biased.

    Also can't help notice that with some of those bad-traffic scenarios, you're going to be sitting in the car a LONG time before you run out of juice as evnow mentioned. That said, it does show that having strategically placed quick-charge stations and even more range will be crucial for mass adoption - especially considering that many will not be willing to drive 55mph on the highway in heat-waves and will want to drive 70mph which will likely reduce the range from 70mi to less than 60mi.
  8. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Well I'm going to take a simpler approach to all of this.

    The Reality of The Leaf? Will be The Reality of The Leaf. I look forward to hearing from owners what it's like to use it in a variety of real life situations and day to day.

    I hate the referenced article. To me it's just Anti-Electric Car propaganda. The rapid fire presentation of multiple scenarios surrounded with sarcastic phrases and "Warnings" is just designed to give the uninitiated something to read and make them feel better about NOT buying an Electric Car. They can read that article and rest easy believing The Leaf is not ready for prime time..and they knew it...

    Most people aren't really going to reach far enough to evaluate each scenario and what it really means.

    Sure as one of the first mass produced full electric vehicles The Leaf is not going to be the everything vehicle for everybody. And of course there will be differences in applicable useage and ownership in comparison to the majority of ICE automobiles. But trying to scare people away with the presentation of hypothetical driving scenarios and speculative range capacities that portray The Leaf as capable of being nothing more than a wall flower at the big dance...is unfair IMO.
    3 people like this.
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    I am guessing they ran the Leaf through LA4 (UDDS) until the pack ran out of charge at around 100 miles. They should be able to do the same with FTP, HWFET, NYCC, US06 and SC03.

    Below is UDDS (LA4) which Leaf is rated 100 miles range.
    [​IMG]

    Below is FTP.
    [​IMG]

    Below is HWFET.
    [​IMG]

    Below is NYCC.
    [​IMG]

    Below is US06.
    [​IMG]

    Below is SC03.
    [​IMG]
    2 people like this.
  10. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    They definitely need a new test standard for electrics and plug in hybrids. The easiest would be to hook a meter to the battery pack if
    there is not one already and measure miles per kwh in the standard tests. The other standard should show usable stored energy in terms of kwh. Temperature correction would be a very useful addition for both usable capacity and efficiency with air conditioning or heating.
  11. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Prius can best extract about 12.9 kWh out of a gallon of gasoline (220 g/kWh @ 2829 g/regular gas US gallon). That comes out to about 257 Wh per mile if you average 50 MPG.

    Basically, Nissan Leaf's 24kWh battery has energy equivalent of less than two gallons of 87 Octane gas in a Prius (or 4 gallon in 25 MPG car).

    I think 75 MPG is more realistic if the battery pack were to discharge 80% (24,000Wh / 257wh x 0.8).
  12. evnow

    evnow Active Member

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    It seems 24kwh is the usable capacity rather than max.
  13. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Not exactly, but there is a similarity. In city miles, the ICE runs, or idles ... forever bringing your MPG's down. Yes, there WILL be SOME parasitic loss while sitting at a light in an EV, but unless the AC is running hard, it will be way less wasted power.
  14. evnow

    evnow Active Member

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    Not sure what you you mean - what I meant was we do need the new EPA standard numbers instead of just LA4. I beleive that includes some AC running etc.

    Not that I'd use AC in Seattle ;)
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Summer A/C isn't going to be as much of a drain as the Winter needs.

    LA4? Try MN-4.

    Think about it. In the extreme cold, you've got a big drain from the need to create heat from electricity... which in itself will use more than the A/C. Compound that with the need to defrost... which requires the use of a condenser, yes, the A/C must also be run at the same time.
    .
  16. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Maybe I'll stick our picnic table top propane heater in there ... you know ... crack the window a bit for ventalation. I should be good to go.
    :D
    Actually, I think the COLD issue is why most of the early adapter areas are warmer areas. With the exception of TN, at least.

    .
  17. evnow

    evnow Active Member

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    Cold is a real problem since it makes the BMS think the battery capacity is much reduced. Ofcourse conditioning the car before driving will take care of some of that.
  18. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    As far as range ... prepare to hear from buyers;
    "Hey! I'm only getting 70 miles range!"

    and,

    "Hey! I just beat my old record of 120 ... and got 135 miles!"

    Just like range on a Prius, the average will be from all facets.

    .
  19. mwalsh

    mwalsh Member

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    More range talk:

    Real-World Results: 2011 Nissan Leaf EV Range May Differ by 40 Miles - Wide Open Throttle - Motor Trend Magazine

    Interestingly, it doesn't mention any situation where you would get any less than 60 miles per charge and even more interestingly we get our first hard estimate for highway driving WITHOUT climate control - 105 miles!:

    "Engineers assigned to the project have long believed that the 100-mile range offered by the new 2011 Nissan Leaf electric vehicle is more than sufficient for most customers. Of course, that figure may vary depending on your driving habits -- and, according to the automaker, the Leaf’s real-world range may differ by as much as 40 miles.

    Read more: Real-World Results: 2011 Nissan Leaf EV Range May Differ by 40 Miles - Wide Open Throttle - Motor Trend Magazine

    “Depending on the way you use the air conditioning and the driving mode, the [range] varies largely,†Hidetoshi Kadota, chief engineer for the Leaf program, recently told Automotive News. “This is a physical characteristic of electric vehicles.â€

    Admittedly, accessory loads, driving styles, and a number of other variables play a factor in determining a vehicle’s total range, but electric vehicles’ ranges tend to vary quite wildly. You can thank the Leaf’s lithium-ion batteries for that. Although the chemistry is currently considered state of the art for EV power storage, their performance is altered by different climates. Both hot and cold temperatures affect the amount of energy the batteries can supply -- and, subsequently, the total range on a single charge.

    Nissan suggests that drivers may see a swing of 40 percent in the Leaf’s range -- some may be able to eke out as much as 140 miles, but in other situations, that figure can drop to 60 miles. Kadota himself recently noted the following scenarios:

    * Driving in bumper-to-bumper traffic at 15 mph in cold, wintry weather with the heater on? Expect a range of about 62 miles.
    * Driving around 50 mph with the air conditioning on? Nissan says the range will fall to approximately 70 miles.
    * In normal highway driving (i.e. 60-70 mph), the Leaf can travel approximately 105 miles, provided the climate controls are off.
    * If you leave the heater and A/C off, and keep your speeds to 40 mph or less, the Leaf’s range can jump to roughly 138-140 miles.

    Sound extreme? Admittedly, these are extremes. Not all drivers perpetually blast climate controls, drive flat-out down expressways, or sit endlessly in gridlocked traffic. The 100-mile range, which was based upon Nissan’s testing of the EPA’s LA-4 drive cycle, is believed to be a reasonable average.

    What’s your commute like? Stuck in traffic? Blitzing down interstates? Can you hypermile your way to the workplace? Would the limited (and fluctuating) range of an EV mesh well with your driving habits, or will you keep shopping elsewhere?"
    1 person likes this.
  20. daniel

    daniel Cat Lovers Against the Bomb

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    I once took my electric Porsche on the freeway with the A/C running. It was a HUGE drain on the system. In the Xebra I've used the heater (a fairly powerful aftermarket one) and the drain is much less than I'd have anticipated at zero Celsius. I conclude from this that the big mileage killer is the A/C, not the heater.

    Extreme cold may be another matter entirely. (But even my Prius was always freezing on my short commute in North Dakota winters.)
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