Philips' new LED light bulbs are brighter, more efficient, not cheap

Discussion in 'Environmental Discussion' started by eaglesight333, May 14, 2010.

  1. Prowler

    Prowler Newbie

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    Way to much cost for benifit.
     
  2. carz89

    carz89 I study nuclear science...

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    That's what many said (and still say) about the Prius.

    Even I am taken aback by the sticker shock, but you need to look at the math. You can come out ahead financially in the long term, but only if you choose wisely and use them in high-demand places, such as the kitchen, or perhaps in outdoor lanterns that you keep lit all night. The side benefit, obviously, is the smaller eco footprint.

    I've taken the plunge and purchased a few candelabra-style from Home Depot and I use them only in outdoor lights that are on all night. An incredible side-benefit: I've noticed that these LED bulbs attract fewer insects and spiders, probably because they emit much less short-wavelength (blue and UV) radiation than incandescents or fluorescents.

    When my CFL's burn-out in the kitchen, that'll be the next place for LED's. (I'm sick of all those CFLs that burn out in much shorter time than advertised!)
     
  3. chogan2

    chogan2 Senior Member

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    LED bulb in article, 806 Lumens, 12 watts = 67 lumens per watt.

    Off-the-shelf nvision "60 watt" CFLs (sold by Home Depot, among others): 69 lumens per watt:

    Compare Light Bulb - Light Bulbs Comparison

    Standard, off-the-shelf T8 fluorescent with electronic ballast: 90 lumens per watt:

    How efficacious are T8 fluorescent lamps? | T8 Fluorescent Lamps | Lighting Answers | NLPIP

    I think mercury-vapor and high-pressure-sodium go to 150 lumens/watt or so, but you wouldn't want to use them for home lighting.

    I have three LED bulbs I use for one application. They are odd and interesting, but that's about it. Commercially-available LED bulbs may some day be significantly more efficient than the alternatives. But not yet.
     
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  4. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    Low pressure sodium can be 150 lumens/w or higher, but hardly anybody uses them anymore. They give off a monochrome sickly yellow glow. I had one at my hobby farm, they work well but are only good for general area lighting
     
  5. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    That sort of lighting is really odd. It can be very bright, but still not let you see well. It must be a bad wavelength for human eyes.

    Tom
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Here's the rub for me:
    Cost:
    Even when CFL's burn out a year before their advertised expectation (much less their warranty) the cost per longevity doesn't pan out. Congratulations still go to philips for moving forward with their product. But WHY are they saying, "just a bright" ?? Clearly, when you pay just $2 - $4 for a CFL that puts out more lumens than an LED's 'comparable' lumen output, the advertising falls on its face
    Refrigerators:
    They run Cool! Perfect application? OK, so you go the great links to convert cheep LED's to the proper socket size, and then they don't last that long. Use high end LED's in the fridge, and they have a BIG HEAT SINK! So you STILL end up belching heat into the fridge, just like an incandescent.
    Dimmable:
    What with LED's low lumens per watt issues, narrower beam issues, then you throw in cost to buy a dimmable LED, it seems you end up with a high priced product not ready for prime time.

    Even so, I'll still buy one, here & there, just to see how they perform. I have yet to find an LED that lasts long enough to justify the cost, AND have a decent beam width, AND look warm AND bright AND dimmable. But right now, it's like the early days of CFL's ... man that was money that could have been better spent, but for moving the industry forward.
     
  7. carz89

    carz89 I study nuclear science...

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    It emits a few discrete wavelengths which appear yellowish to our eyes. Far away from the blue-violet-UV end of the spectrum, so the bugs can't see them.
     
  8. zenMachine

    zenMachine Just another Onionhead

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    Side note: Todd Rundgren pioneered the use of LEDs during his Liars Tour (2004) where ALL the lights for the stage set were LEDs. Check out this version of "While My Guitar Gently Weeps":

     
  9. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

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    It will never break even for the LED lamp @ $60 compare to CFL which can be had < $1 with utility subsides. It will be used only in commercial buildings which have high cost to replace bulbs with very tall ceilings.
     
  10. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Are you kidding?
    Who honestly believes costs will remain at $60 ?? It's just a matter of time before prices come down. Saying, "It will never break even ..." is about as correct as saying, "home computer use will never be practical due to costs". Prices keep falling.
     
  11. carz89

    carz89 I study nuclear science...

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    I agree, the cost and efficiency aren't quite there yet, but seemingly about to break through soon.

    There are so many factors that affect the efficiency. Bulb & electronics configuration, heat sinks, light color, size, LED technology, etc. The efficiency of LEDs have been dramatically ramping upward over the years at a logarithmic pace, whereas fluorescent technology has stagnated. You can buy LEDs in the 80-100 lumen/watt range, just not at Home Depot. Labs have recently (this year) developed and tested LEDs between 150 and 208 lumens/watt.

    LEDs last much much longer than fluorescents, especially when prevented from getting hot. (except traffic signal LEDs - I don't know what their deal is!)

    One perfect application is Christmas Tree lighting. Years ago I had the standard tiny incandescant bulb strings - about 200 watts total for the whole tree (a big tree). I replaced them all with an equivalent number of LEDs, and it came down to 1 watt total. Yes, 1 WATT! I made the comparison with a P3 Kill-A-Watt meter. And they don't get warm. Might as well leave them on 24/7 at that rate!

    Many intangibles with LED's (kind of like the Prius). They can be designed into a fixture to be much more attractive than fluorescent bulbs. They run cooler. More light color options. Less attractive to bugs. Etc. Have you seen the new Audi LED headlights? Incredibly attractive compared to all those other headlights out there.
     
  12. bedrock8x

    bedrock8x Senior Member

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    I am not kidding, even if the LED comes down to $10 it is still not cost effective.
    Home computer went from $2K to $400 in a span of 25 years.

     
  13. jcgee88

    jcgee88 Member

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    I just bought two "candle style" LED bulbs, 2 for $20.
    They cost 4X more than comparable CFL and 10X more
    than incandescent. For those areas which require "instant
    light," like bathrooms, I have been using a combination
    of one incandescent and the rest CFLs. I am doing the
    same with the LEDs, and installed two LEDs with one
    incandescent in our entry hallway. The prior incandescent
    consumed 40w per, while the new LEDs consume 2w
    per. The LEDs light up immediately, which I like, but
    they definitely are not as bright as the incandescent
    they replace. So...sort of a mixed bag for now.
     
  14. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

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    I spent $28 for a GU-10 LED bulb. Using the watt meter, the consumption dropped from 37 Watts to 1.6 Watts. The main reason is that I can position the desk lamp bulb close to my head to give me the best angle for reading light positioning.....and no longer worry about burning my hand or head if I touch the lamp. It's strange to be able to grab the bright lamp and have it be cool to the touch. That's one application worth the money.
     
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  15. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

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  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Thanks. I just happen to need another. My house was converted over entirely back in 2010. The Philips was my favorite and still is.

    Recently their 60-watt equiv was locally reduced to $15. Those work great. The 75-watt is what I need another of now. They're still at $40. But for my mom who's garage-door bulb just died, using LED on a device that routinely vibrates is ideal. You can beat them, and they keep on shining.
     
  17. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    This table accounts for 3 variables:
    Bulb Life
    Watts saved compared to alternative bulb
    Cost of electricity

    Pick your path :)

    [​IMG]
     

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  18. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    This is all exactly right, but it does not tell the entire story. Vision sensitivity varies across the visible light spectrum, so a more valid unit/watt is called (I think) lumen efficacy. I have looked up LED vs CFL before, but unfortunately I have forgotten the relative values.

    Addendum (from [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminous_efficacy"]Wikipedia[/ame])

    [​IMG]
     

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  19. Skoorbmax

    Skoorbmax Senior Member

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    These are great bulbs. I've seen them in Home Depot on display and they obliterate the others plugged in. Look very bright, nice color. I believe philips won some gov-sponsored competition with them or something. I still don't have any because still too expensive!