Plug-In Hybrids vs. FCV

I take more long trips in general but now I live closer to work so I can usually do the commute using no gas. But, my new GF lives another 30min beyond my work and I can't charge there because of the old wiring and distance from the parking area. Soo I was doing pretty well until recently. On the flip side she said I can have a Tesla if she can have a horse. lol

 

Ford and GM may have spoken of a plug in FC, but the current ones don't. It could be due to cost and packaging reasons, but most likely because plug ins are seen as the enemy of fuel cells.

Toyota is using a down sized stack to reduce cost, but it will have poorer performance compared to similarly priced cars; Tesla, BMW, etc. Better efficiency than the gasoline and diesel models, but likely not the Tesla.

The battery isn't a choice in a FCEV though. It is needed. A fuel cell alone doesn't have the power response to operate a car in the way people are accustomed to, or is safe with other vehicle types on the road. It's like a Sterling engine, great an efficient at steady output, but slow to modulate power output to demands. The battery is a buffer between output and demand. Not because it allows an more efficient fuel cell like the battery does in a hybrid with a downsized ICE, but because even high power fuel cell can't accelerate the car fast enough to keep up with traffic alone.

Without a battery a FCEV would have to warm up for several minutes before driving too.

 

I don't think you have owned a hybrid. I don't think you are an internet keyboard warrior neither but you seem confused or being confused to prove yourself right.

Toyota called their FCV a hybrid since the beginning (2008?). See the prototype FCHV and then FCHV-adv.

The idea was to replace the gas engine with FC stack. Keep the secondary energy storage HV battery, power electronic, motor and the HSD brain that continuously blend the two power (fc stack and battery) together.

Since the battery compliment fc stack, it can be smaller to handle only typical loads. Battery also helps during start up, very high or very low loads. Doing that brings out synergy as both are operated one instead of two seperate systems. What made it possible was the brain (programming) that knows the strong and weak points of the two energy devices.

That is the fundamental of HSD. It doesn't matter if it runs on gas, diesel, natural gas or hydrogen.

Battery factories were built with government loan and tax break.

LG chem gets tax credit for every battery pack. Probably the same for Nissan.

Every Volt and Leaf sold gets $7,500 tax credit.

Government reasearch battery patent was licensed to LG Chem at very low cost.

The butter is three layers from R&D to consumer to make battery powered vehicle competitive. The hope was to get similar success as the Prius.

Don't take those granted and think they are "normal" prices because the cost is much higher.

Even that is not enough to reach 50 MPG greeness. Renewable energy (especially solar) has to be subsidized to feed those batteries.

I am not saying this because I am against renewable clean energy. I am for it and think we need to do it the right way.

 

What is the right way in your opinion ?

Mine is simple: tax carbon, and collect tax for an upgraded grid that allows efficient regional sharing. No one seems to be listening to me though

 

hmm. The US government also gave toyota a big chunk of money to build prii in Mississippi, instead toyota used it to move corrolla production from california to mississippi, where they could pay less for workers and electricity. I guess each corrola is by your logic subsidized. Now it is true the US government paid to get batteries built in the US, and gave patents away cheaply for fuel cells. The Japanese government also gave toyota and panasonic a lot of money for the battery plants there. The prius phv gets more federal battery subsidies per kwh than the volt, leaf, or tesla S. All the US government subsidies were available for Toyota, which is not true about the Japanese subsidies for LG or american companies The federal fcv subsidy started at $12K and is at $8K which has always been more than battery subsidies.

Bt it stands there are no extra subsidies for replacement packs, which is as I have stated.

Toyota is very good at lobbying for US subsidies. When you combine them Toyota will probably end up with about $40K subsidy from the federal and state governments for each fcv they sell in the US.

I don't quite get what your point is here. Read again what I said. The volt, leaf, and tesla have low profits on battery replacement packs because they want to encourage more plug-in sales. Toyota has a high profit margin on its replacement pack. I doubt costs are above $3000 even today and they should drop. The US government would like to encourage plug-in sales. Toyota in most of their fcv pr is anti-plug-in. Perhaps the high price is to encourage fcv over prius phv sales, as toyota recieves much higher government subsidies for its fcv. The good news is if toyota changes there mind, there is no reason they have to charge so much for a battery pack. If they want to sell higher volumes of the prius phv this generation or next they have a lot of tools to profitably do it.

I think only you and the petroleum lobby belives that 50mpg prius is the ultimate green car, and that plug-ins are not green. Here I simply disagree. Since we are on a phv versus fcv thread for CARB rules, and at least let us understand how california will reach its goals with a gasoline only fleet?

 

The genius of hsd is the seemless blending of mechanical energy and electrical energy through a power split device, and complex software. The electrical hardware to handle this complex software simply wasn't available when trw developed the psd, and toyota was the first to do it well and profitabley.

The clarity, tucson phev, f-cell, and toyota fcv all use a battery as a power buffer for the fuel cell stack. The fuel cell simply can not change power levels fast enough to give a proper driving experience. Hundai started with an ultra capacitor, but switched to batteries when they became less expensive. The software is much simpler, fill in the power gaps with the battery, recharge it when it gets bellow a certain level, This is electrical power mixining, not mixing of electrical and mechanical power.

Part of the fuel cell hype at toyota has been that it will be sucessful just like the prius, and they imply that it will quickly rise to prius sales volume.

I believe the HSD branding was meant to support this PR stategy. The truth is they contain very little that is the same, but toyota would like to use the prius to help sell the fcv. They don't want to call the fcv a prius (prius fcv in the prius family just like the prius c) because then failure might bring down prius sales.

Toyota owns the brand, and this is pretty normal stuff. I don't think calling the fcv hsd causes any big problems, unless you buy into the fuel cell hype cycle, and that somehow this gives toyota a big advantage when it comes to selling mass market fuel cell vehicles.

Toyota may be using hybrid motors, inverters, wiring, batteries, and ecus to help bring the cost down of the expensive vehicles. The software for mixing energy can not be used, but perhaps regen braking software and hardware can be shared.

 

I joined Priuschat around the same time you did. Originally going as ShellyT, the name of my 2005 driftwood pearl. When we had to sell the Prius due to lost income, I asked Danny to change my handle to this one, which is what I use on other forums.

I thought it was BS back then, but was less outspoken.

Toyota is the only one calling their FCEV a hybrid, and it isn't any different than the others physically. They all have a motor, inverter, battery, and fuel cell. Toyota is hoping that the good fortune they had with the Prius transfer to their FCEV by branding them the same.

Even now, most of the public don't understand hybrids. Same with plug ins like the Prius phv. Calling a FCEV a hybrid muddies the waters while the competition doesn't in an area that a majority of the public doesn't clearly get.

Does Toyota have a pure serial hybrid? That's what this analogy applies too, not the parallel/serial hybrid system in their cars. A fuel cell doesn't provide motive force directly like an ICE in parallel mode. It is just an electrical generator. Seemlessly blending the output of the ICE and motor to drive the car through one axle is what is special about HSD. It does blend electric power from two sources for one motor, but that is only part of the Prius' success.

No one is bringing to 'market' a FCEV that is fuel stack only with no battery. It was determined early on such wasn't feasible for a personal vehicle. The first FCEVs on American roads for the public, by Honda and Mercedes, had batteries. The Hyundai has a battery. GM's prototypes have batteries. Perhaps Toyota's software makes the system more efficient. IIRC, the old Honda Clarity at 60 mpge, or whatever the gasoline gallon equivalent is called, is the one to beat.

So you and Toyota marketing claims. I'm claiming that it is as far removed from the actual engineering as all marketing speak tends to be, and it can cause confusion in consumers. Xerox printers likely confuse people when they can't make a direct copy.

 

In other words, Toyota sees the Prius as a halo model to help them sell other cars.

 

Yes of course that has been a very sucessful strategy. Having the prius definitely looks like it has raised camry and corrolla sales, and probably some other models. The halo effect has decreased as other automakers come out with their plug-ins, but it still is there for toyota a decade after the gen II started pulling sales of other cars with it. It has also insulated toyota from critism of some of its low mpg vehicles like the tundra and sequoia.

I am sure toyota would like its fcv to be a halo like the prius has been. I simply doubt that will work, because it won't sell in most of the country. It may actually become a hummer type anti-halo in california, where more people have a strong negative opinion of the fuel cell lobby. Lexus which has been carying the fuel cell message, would be the first casualty of it being an anti-halo. In 3 years we should look at lexus california sales and see if the fcv strategy has turned anti-halo, or pulled some toyota/lexus sales forward like the prius has.

 

Toyota has transplanted Prius powerplant to other models (about 25 other Toyotas/Lexus). That's much more than a halo model.

 

Part of the definition of a halo model is that technology from that model makes it to other cars. Use that to check the box that the prius has been a good halo model.

BMW wants its i8 to be a tech halo too, and are already advertising that part of the tech developed for it has already made it into the 3 series, their high volume car.

 

But it isn't transplanted into the FCEV. They are hoping using the HSD trademark will get people to over look that.

 

Here is a great 'back and forth' on hydrogen.
Hydrogen Fuel Cell Vehicle Myths Debunked

According to one of the conclusions, natural gas produced hydrogen vehicles emit more GHG than a standard Prius (and has less power).

 

The bottom line is that FCVs are hybrids (stop/start, electric motors, HV sized batteries) and should be compared against Prius-style full hybrids. When they are, they do not demonstrate any significant CO2 emissions advantage when they use hydrogen from steam reformed natural gas. NG hydrogen is the cheapest way to make hydrogen so that's how it would be made in the real world -- that's just basic economics.

So, why would we want to spend huge amounts of money for new infrastructure, new technology, and more expensive cars for something that isn't any better than existing hybrid tech?

The sensible way forward for consumer passenger cars is:

1. Aggressively move towards full hybridization of gasoline cars

2. Plugin hybrids

3. EVs

Aggressively decarbonize the grid with renewable sources and institute a gradually and predictably increasing carbon (gas) tax. The invisible hand of the market will efficiently allocate the right resources when the price signals are correctly set in line with our policy goals.

 

Ditto. Add carbon tax into the purchase of gasoline, diesel, electricity or H2. The more carbon in it, the higher the tax for that fuel.

I might also add vehicle level carbon tax during the vehicle registration.

 

50 MPG Prius is a pretty high standard. Yes, you can beat it with solar charged plugin but at very high cost. That was my point.

This sums up the ultimate eco car:


It is not a single car but a suite of different fuels with the hybrid being the core technology.

 

The suggestion that electro-mechnical hybrid is the only real hybrid is not correct.

SAE defines a hybrid as a vehicle with two or more energy storage systems, both of which provide propulsion power, either together or independently.

 

If a FCV has a battery and FC stack, by definition, it is a hybrid. There is no marketing claim, pure engineering definition stated clearly.

 

+1

Energy independence, of course. Hydrogen can be generated from all types of fuels, just like electricity but cheaper to store and faster to refuel. It has advantages of both gasoline and electricity.

 

That wasn't what I said at all.

I said that the system in the toyota fcv was the same as in the honda, hundai, mercedes, etc fcv, they use the batter as a power buffer. You would have awful performance with a fcv without the buffer.

I don't consider any of these things hybrids as there battery size is insufficient to do much interesting other than fill in for inaduquate speed of power changes inherant in a fuel cell, and to store regen braking. The trial plug-in fuel cell bus we have here ofcourse has much different and more complicated software. Then again toyota is perfectly free to use the hsd branding. They could call it a road based rocket ship if they wanted. Some people will agree.

The problem comes in if people believe there is somehting special from the prius in toyota's fcv that is not also in everyone elses small traction battery fcv. I don't have any trouble with the brading, its with the hype.