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Prius vs. HUMMER: Exploding the Myth

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by Arroyo, Apr 17, 2007.

  1. MegansPrius

    MegansPrius GoogleMeister, AKA bongokitty

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Stev0 @ May 12 2007, 06:21 PM) [snapback]440743[/snapback]</div>
    But progress is being made. The Mail on Sunday has finally retracted (sort-of) the arid wilderness story. The story is no longer on line, and the link to it now produces:

    Toyota factory
    Last updated at 09:34am on 9th May 2007
    It has come to our attention that a story originally published in the Mail on Sunday has apparently been misinterpreted by some of our readers.

    In order to prevent further misinterpretation, we have removed the article from our website. The following letter was published in the Mail on Sunday on May 13, 2007:

    Your article about the Inco nickel factory at Sudbury, Canada, wrongly implied that poisonous fumes from the factory had left the area looking like a lunar landscape because so many plants and trees had died. You also sought to blame Toyota because the nickel is used, among countless other purposes, for making the Prius hybrid car batteries.

    In fact any damage occurred more than thirty years ago, long before the Prius was made. Since then, Inco has reduced sulphur dioxide emissions by more than 90 per cent and has helped to plant more than 11 million trees.

    The company has won praise from the Ontario Ministry of Environment and environmental groups. Sudbury has won several conservation awards and is a centre for eco-tourism.
    Dave Rado
    Colchester
    http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...in_page_id=1770
     
  2. Stev0

    Stev0 Honorary Hong Kong Cavalier

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ May 14 2007, 08:38 AM) [snapback]441578[/snapback]</div>
    True. I haven't needed to add to my list in over a month.

    Also, I just double-checked those names. With the exception of Albertus, NONE of those thread starters have had more than a handful of posts since starting their threads, and most haven't posted AT ALL.
     
  3. mkaresh

    mkaresh Member

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    Good to see that the press is finally waking up to the problems with CNW's study. Various blogs were way ahead of them.

    I made two entries in my blog:

    http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=48

    http://www.truedelta.com/blog/?p=66

    And I thought I was late doing so. I simply didn't bother at first, because I figured no one would take such an obviously wrong study seriously. How wrong I was...
     
  4. zenMachine

    zenMachine Just another Onionhead

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  5. jkash

    jkash Member

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  6. Ornery Critter

    Ornery Critter New Member

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    I'm a conservative...

    Economic conservative.

    Social conservative.

    Conservative driver.

    We bought a Prius because I knew three other Prius owners who could verify the MPG (of ca. 50 MPG) and comfort of the vehicle.
    We test drove and made the decision. We paid $25K for this 2006 Prius. NB: We did NOT have the $50K for a Hummer.
    Gas is over $3/gal. We commute 100 miles per day, five days a week. We save ca. $70 per week in gasoline costs. Each month, that's 3/4 of our car payment for the Prius.
    We bought the Prius because we commute and we need to save money on gas. We've happily been doing this. NB: We did not buy the Prius to make an "environmental" statement or to be "green."
    We DO NOT need Rush Limbaugh's help encouraging meatheads in SUVs to tailgate us down the highway! Conservatives buy and drive Prii (Pree-eye).
    And, yeah, if you drive any vehicle like an aggressive jerk, you'll probably get poor mileage.
     
  7. wogue

    wogue Lexus CT200h

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    Could it be that some of you mix up the lifetime of the hybrid-vehicle with the lifetime of the battery-pack?

    For replacing the Prius-battery we pay about € 2000-2500,- here in the EU!

    And after 1 minute googeling i found out that there are prius-taxis that still drive around and have made 250,000 miles and more.

    so whats the buzz?!
     
  8. bobdavisnpf

    bobdavisnpf Member

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    Yes, well, the hummer H3 still has 250 whole pounds more carrying capacity than the Prius...! :D
     
  9. ohershey

    ohershey New Member

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    Thought it might be useful to compile a list of rebuttal articles/studies to respond with, and add them to the sticky, rather than have them burried off in the many other threads.

    The Pacific Institute Study:
    http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of...er_vs_prius.pdf

    The retraction of the Sudbury mine article:
    http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/a...p;in_page_id=17

    The CNW Study (includes the excel spreadsheet w. their data):
    http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/

    cwerdna's excellent analysis debunking some of CNW's assumptions:
    http://www.my350z.com/forum/showpost.php?p...mp;postcount=25

    I can't figure out how to link to the attachements in cwerdna's original post, but his original post was here:
    http://priuschat.com/index.php?showtopic=1...mp;#entry272611

    Anybody else have debunking resources to add?
     
    1 person likes this.
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    More ammo:
    http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/askpablo...-car-002538.php

    This week David asks "how much more energy efficient does a new car have to be to make up for the energy of production vs a used car? For example, if someone was considering buying a used car that gets 18 mpg vs. a new car that gets 30 mpg. At what point in driving would that increase in mpg make up for the energy of production of the new vehicle?" Read on to find the answer in this week's AskPablo.

    The Argonne National Lab has done a great job in analyzing the material intensity and energy consumption in manufacturing vehicles and vehicle fuels. Their work is packaged in the GREET 1.7 and 2.7 models (Excel-based and available at: http://www.transportation.anl.gov/software/GREET/). According to the assumptions in their model the average conventional internal combustion engine vehicle (ICEV) is made up of 61.7% steel, 11.1% iron, 6.9% aluminum, 1.9% copper/brass, 2.9% glass, and around 13.6% plastic/rubber. This data will help us determine the energy required to produce a vehicle. We will also have to look at the energy used in operating a vehicle. To help us along in our analysis we will look back at AskPablo: Lighten the Load to find the relationship between vehicle weight and fuel efficiency.

    According to the GREET model it takes 100.391 mmBTU (million BTU) to make the vehicle, batteries, and fluids in an average 3,201 pound vehicle. This comes out to 31,362 BTU/lb. The obvious lesson in this is that heavier vehicles require more energy to make than lighter ones, in general. There has been a study circulating that states that hybrids are more environmentally damaging than Hummers because of the battery production but this has been widely disputed. According to the GREET model a Hybrid Electric Vehicle (HEV) that weighs 2,632 pounds requires 101.726 mmBTU to make, or 38,650 BTU/lb. As we will see, this small difference in production energy becomes negligible when you factor in the increased fuel efficiency.

    Using the GREET assumptions I will compare several vehicles, a Hummer H2, a Toyota Prius, and the Toyota Highlander (standard and hybrid). I will use the vehicle's published curb weight to determine the energy used in manufacturing, based on the mmBTU/lb factors above and I will use the average MPG (city and highway) to estimate fuel usage over a 160,000 mile lifespan. The energy required to manufacture the vehicles is:

    • Hummer H2: 200.717 mmBTU
    • Toyota Prius: 113.322 mmBTU
    • Toyota Highlander: 107.133 mmBTU
    • Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 155.18 mmBTU
    Gasoline contains 113,500 BTU (0.1134 mmBTU) per gallon. By dividing the expected lifespan of a vehicle (160,000) by its average MPG we can determine the gallons of gasoline used over that lifetime. We can also multiply this by the energy content of the fuel to get the total energy used. The gallons used during a 160,000 mile lifespan and the energy contained therein is:
    • Hummer H2: 13,913 gallons ($44,800 at today's prices!), 1579.13 mmBTU
    • Toyota Prius: 2,883 gallons, 327.207 mmBTU
    • Toyota Highlander: 6,400, 726.4 mmBTU
    • Toyota Highlander Hybrid: 5,424, 615.593 mmBTU
    So, in comparison, 89% of the energy consumed by a Hummer H2 is in burning fuel, whereas the Toyota Prius uses 74% of total energy on burning fuel. This means that, in relation to weight, the Prius requires more energy to manufacture, but the Hummer uses far more energy to operate. What we also learn (click on the graph to enlarge) is that a Hummer H2 uses more energy in the first 24,000 miles (roughly 2 years) than the Prius will in its entire lifetime.Here is my advice, David: Continuing to drive an older car with poor fuel economy is less environmentally friendly than getting a new car that gets drastically better fuel economy. You can take my factors above and calculate the exact energy use for your old vehicle and a new vehicle to see the comparison. Keep in mind that these results are for the energy used, not the carbon dioxide emissions, but the two are highly correlated since most of our energy comes from fossil fuels.

    Pablo Päster, MBA
    Sustainability Engineer



    [​IMG]
     
  11. fshagan

    fshagan Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(liquidsoapdispenser @ Apr 18 2007, 08:08 AM) [snapback]425312[/snapback]</div>
    Voluntary efforts are fine, but judging by the outcry here when gas goes up to $3.75 a gallon, even Prius drivers don't want to pay the cost of those kinds of reductions.

    California will reduce CO2 on the backs of the poor, who are disproportionately affected by slower economic growth, and can't afford the higher cost for basic necessities. If Californians were serious about it, they would pass a law that no one can have a house larger than 1,000 square feet per person without the excess square footage being offset by energy savings. The exodus from Hollywood would be dramatic.

    But we aren't really serious about reducing CO2. We complain when gas goes up, and all of us here, who own Prius', are relatively rich compared to the poor.
     
  12. patsparks

    patsparks An Aussie perspective

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    I don't believe my owning a Prius (which I bought second hand) has an adverse affect on the poor. The real poor don't own cars so petrol prices have a minimal impact, social justice policies of government and business have the biggest impact, like minimum wages, access to free health care and social security. The biggest problem for the poor is the obscene wealth at the top is at the expence generally of the poor. Rich people are happy to send employment to poor countries even though wages are pitiful and even though it takes work away from your country because it allows them to buy a bigger thirstier car or a bigger house that needs more energy to heat. All this even though the car and house they had were more than adequate.
     
  13. craigcush

    craigcush Member

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  14. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    TOYOTA OFFICIALLY RESPONDS to CNW report...
    http://www.toyota.com/html/dyncon/2007/sep...mmervprius.html

    HEARD THE ONE ABOUT THE HUMMER?
    Some readers of Hybrid Synergy View say they've heard about a report that claims a Hummer H3 sport utility vehicle uses less energy per mile driven than a Toyota Prius sedan. Not surprisingly, Prius fans who take pride in their cars' energy efficiency are confused by this claim.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    The report, published earlier this year by CNW Marketing Research, Inc., is titled "Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal." It is said to measure in dollars and cents all the energy used in creating, building, operating and disposing of each vehicle over its entire lifetime. The report says a Prius costs $3.25 per mile to operate, versus just $1.95 a mile for the Hummer H3.

    In May, a response from the Pacific Institute said of the CNW report, "The little supporting evidence that it has released suggests that the contentions in the report are, at best, unproven, and are likely wrong: the result of faulty analysis, untenable assumptions, manipulation and misuse of facts and data, numerical mischaracterization, and inadequate review."

    Because of its remarkable claims, however, the CNW report has been circulated widely and quoted in the media, continuing to spur questions from consumers.

    Vehicle life and lifetime miles
    For example, the Prius is assumed in this report to be driven only about 9200 miles a year, and to have a service life of less than 12 years and 109,000 miles. CNW assumes the average Hummer H3 will travel 207,000 miles over a lifetime of 15-plus years. The H1, incidentally, is assumed to have a lifetime of nearly 35 years, with 379,000 total miles.

    According to data from the New Vehicle Consumer Study by Maritz Research, Prius owners plan to drive their vehicles an average of over 14,600 miles per year. And if Prius hybrids last only the 12 years assumed by CNW Marketing Research, Inc. -- also an unsupportable assumption, given the substantially greater service lives of other Toyota vehicles -- they would still rack up more than 175,000 miles in their lifetime.

    Production costs versus operating costs
    Using another puzzling assumption, the CNW report seems to assign the majority of a vehicle's lifetime energy input to its design, development and production. We turn again to the Pacific Institute, which cites five independent studies showing that the operation of a vehicle is responsible for at least 73 percent and as much as 90 percent of its lifetime energy cost.

    One of these studies, from the Argonne National Laboratory, is quoted as concluding that "around 74% of all hybrid and internal combustion vehicle energy use comes from the operation of the vehicle."

    Pacific Institute quotes the MIT study "On the Road in 2020" as saying that a comprehensive life-cycle energy analysis found that "80% to 90% of all energy was used in the operation stage, 7% to 12% in the materials production stage, and the remainder in vehicle assembly, distribution, and disposal."

    So, with lifetime energy cost divided by lifetime miles, as in the CNW report, Prius's per-mile energy input would be substantially better than is shown in that report, and better than that of a Hummer.

    Our method of measurement
    Toyota, meanwhile, employs its own standard to measure each new vehicle's environmental "footprint." Toyota's Eco-VAS, or Eco-Vehicle Assessment System, is a tool for predicting and reducing the environmental impact of its vehicles. It also measures the energy required in a vehicle's production and operating stages, but goes beyond analysis to provide a framework for design changes that improve environmental performance.

    Toyota's engineers use Eco-VAS all through the process of design and development and leading to production -- measuring a vehicle according to six critical standards: fuel efficiency, exhaust emissions, external vehicle noise, lifetime environmental impact, recyclability and the reduction of substances of concern.

    In design and production, these standards lead to the replacement of hexavalent chromium, lead and other substances of concern, lower the use of in-plant energy, and employ some plastic parts made from agricultural products rather than petrochemicals.

    In the operating stage of a vehicle's life, Eco-VAS improves fuel efficiency, produces fewer greenhouse gases and smog components, and cuts the impact of batteries, tires, oil and parts used in maintenance.

    And, in the recycling and disposal phase, Eco-VAS standards improve the collection and reuse of recyclable materials, provide for easier dismantling and prevent the production of harmful waste.

    The bottom line
    The people at Toyota are no strangers to environmental awareness and to the positive changes that benefit both our consumers and the world they inhabit. With Eco-VAS, we're taking giant steps to do even better.

    And Prius owners, knowing the facts about the gentle environmental impact of their cars, continue to be proud of the choice they've made.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Editor's note: Readers interested in CNW's full 458-page report may find it at:
    http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveener...F%20VERSION.pdf
    The Pacific Institute response can be seen at:
    www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_vs_prius.pdf
    The Summer 2006 Hybrid Synergy View article on Eco-VAS is available at: http://www.toyota.com/html/hybridsynergyvi...mer/ecovas.html
     
  15. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    I wasn't sure if we added RMI's (Rocky Mountain Institute) study of the Dust to Dust assumptions or not.

    The .pdf is located below.

    Checking Dust to Dust's Assumptions about the Prius and the Hummer:


    RMI is a think tank for for environmental health and economic prosperity so be aware of that while reading the article. I still like them and their ideas. :)
     
  16. dspur59

    dspur59 New Member

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    Actually...

    I couldnt care LESS about the "green-ness" of my prius.

    The smog laws have gotten to a point of diminishing returns, like MOST so-called environment friendly legislation.

    Tree-huggers and the sierra club have pushed all kinds of regulations on the forest service. Those same regulations resulted in the burning of 60% of all forests in the western United States back about 4 years ago. It isnt about the environment anymore, if it ever was. Its all about keeping attornies in jobs in litigation with the government. And well meaning, emotional people worried about their environment. Active volcanos pollute far more than the sum total of mans pollution from the last 2,000 years. Environmentalists cant stop volcanos, cant stop the weather: nor could they possibly pollute the planet in excess of the planets capacity to absorb. Detonated nuclear warheads have only a short term environmental effect on the environment. People still live in Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and are healthy. Man lacks the capacity to seriously damage God's creation (oops..not supposed to say "God" in front of environmentalists..it offends their Stalinist predisposition).

    The place where I live has doubled in population. The air, due to needed smog laws, is cleaner than it probably has been in 150 years, before the automobile and the factory. But the forest fires kept it hazy most of the time, before the industrialization of the area.

    I loved my diesel excursion. I had to sell it because the fuel cost exceeded my ability to pay.

    Now if I can just figure out how to get this hybrid-barely-bigger-than-a-skateboard to belch black smoke...:D
     
  17. F8L

    F8L Protecting Habitat & AG Lands

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    The ignorance of this post is astounding. You would benefit from a few natural resource and ecology classes. My last course (Natural Resource Conservation) was taught by a botany professor (ex- U.S. Forest Service employee). You are completely and utterly wrong about the environment and anthropogenic emissions. If you are going to attack with such ferocity at least have your facts straight or you end up looking like a moron to those of us who do know the facts.
     
  18. nerfer

    nerfer A young senior member

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    I agree. This guy is a total idiot, and I don't say that lightly. We could come back with facts (line-by-line would be easy), but it appears he doesn't use facts, so it would likely be a waste of time. First post also, dspur59 might not even read the responses or is deliberately looking for a flame war.
     
  19. railroadjames

    railroadjames Junior Member

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    What I Do Know About Hummers & Priuses

    After 4 yrs and 70 K miles I 've come to several conclusions. First of all, the Prius far exceeded all my expectations. While on vacation in Vancouver, B.C. I noticed several taxi cabs (yellow Priuses). I was amazed by the owner/operaters and their stories and testimonies as to the total satisfaction they found in this hybrid car. Several of the drivers spoke of going over 150,000 miles and told how these amazing cars turned around their financial status. Total reliability and almost a constant conversation piece with the passengers. It sounded like free advertising every time a fare got in. I know this to be true because I praised the car countless times with "others" running out and buying one too.
    As to the "Hummer" I'd like to point out a few things. The Hummer is huge. It never fits in a normal parking place without crowding the vehicles on either side and the rear sticks way out. It has one of the worst mpg ratings ( they're exempt from EPA ratings hmmmm) Check their Consumer's Report rating. Then check the Prius. Oh, then there's the ride of a Hummer. Ever hear of a Mac truck? By the way. Ever try getting in & out of a Hummer? Lastly I point out my favorite true encounter with a Hummer last spring when reg. gas was $3.39. I pulled into a gas-station behind a woman filling her husband's Hummer. She looked over at my Prius and asked if it was a hybrid? I responded yes and then heard the common misinformed question. "Where do you plug it in?" Then I heard the click of my nozzle telling me my fill-up was complete. Less than $25.00. As I left I couldn't help but notice her pump was about to close in on $100.00 and still pumping. Life is full of hybrid wisdoms. Oh,check the resale values of both vehicles. Which one wins that contest? Nuff said.
     
  20. a priori

    a priori Canonus Curiosus

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    Welcome to PriusChat -- and thanks for posting your good news and great observations.

    You may want to take a look at a couple of recent threads about Prius taxis!

    BTW, please add info in your profile about the model year and package of your Prius.