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Sound Deadening Toyota Prius...Very Helpful!

Discussion in 'Gen III 2010+ Prius Audio and Electronics' started by ravencr, Jan 12, 2012.

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  1. ravencr

    ravencr Member

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    Your Vehicle Year:
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    Hey guys,

    I contacted Don Sambrook at Sound Deadener Showdown based on one of the other threads I read on here, and asked him the following question:

    "I'm in the process of trying to eliminate road noise in my 2010
    Prius, which appears to be the loudest Toyota I've ever owned…lol.
    It's also the cheapest, so go figure. But, anyways, I'm curious if
    you have any recommendations on what I should get from you to sound
    deaden the entire car: doors, floors, rear cargo area, probably not
    the roof unless it's easy to pull down, which I doubt. Do you
    recommend doing the hood at all? How much of each of your products
    would I need to complete the job?"

    And, I couldn't believe the response I got from him...so detailed and helpful I thought I'd share with everyone:

    Chris,

    Sorry for the slow response. I've never worked on a Prius but have measured one and gone for a drive to evaluate nose levels. Here's my best estimate of what you'll need and how I would treat each area -

    Front Doors (each):
    6 CLD Tiles, outer skin
    1 CLD Tiles, probably cut into smaller pieces, inner skin
    Extruded Butyl Rope
    6.3 ft² MLV
    9.4 ft² 1/8" CCF
    6.3 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic
    2.5 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Rear Doors (each):
    5 CLD Tiles, outer skin
    1 CLD Tiles, probably cut into smaller pieces, inner skin
    Extruded Butyl Rope
    6 ft² MLV
    9 ft² 1/8" CCF
    6 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic
    2.5 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Clean the outer skin thoroughly. No matter how clean the rest of the vehicle is, the inside of the doors is likely to be very dirty. I use denatured alcohol on a rag. Wipe it down until the rag comes out clean.

    Start by pressing Extruded Butyl Rope (EBR) between the outer skin and the side impact protection beams. Leave gaps every few inches to allow water to drain. Cut some strips from a heavy plastic bag and press them into the top surface of the EBR to protect it from dirt.
    * All doors are configured differently. Some have more than one side impact beams. Some have the gap filled already, others have rubber or foam bumpers every few inches. The best way to know whether or not you’ll be able to do this treatment is to look inside your own doors.

    Apply half the CLD Tiles allocated to the outer skin above and half below the side impact protection beam, assuming the impact beam divides the door evenly. Cut the remaining CLD Tiles into smaller pieces and apply them to the inner door skin.

    Start with passenger side - the driver side is oftena mirror image of the passenger side with one or two more connectors. Hang MLV on the inner door skin using Velcro Strips with pressure sensitive adhesive on both sides. The strips are 2"X4" but you can cut them in half for this application (most applications really). Start with 2 pieces in the top corners to hold the MLV in place while you trim it to fit. You want it to be as large as it can be - just barely fitting inside the trim panel when it is replaced. You will need to cut some holes in the MLV to allow cables, rods, shafts, wires, clips and the speakers to come through. You want these holes to be as small as possible. Every place we use MLV we are building a barrier and a barrier needs to be as large and contiguous as possible.

    It helps during the fitting process to periodically remove the MLV from the door and lay it in the trim panel to test fit it. The Velcro makes this easy. When you first hang the MLV on the door, cut holes where the trim panel clips go into the door. You can then use these holes to orient the MLV inside the trim panel.

    When you are satisfied with the MLV fit, add two more Velcro Strip pieces to the bottom corners. It's generally a good idea to add a third piece on top for added strength. Try the fitted MLV on the driver side door. If it fits (reversed) use it as a template. You've just saved yourself a lot of time. If it doesn't, sorry to get your hopes up :)

    By now you should be familiar with the interface between the trim panel and inner skin. The next step is to add a layer of 1/8†CCF between the MLV and the inner skin, using this technique:
    http://www.sounddeadenershowdown.com/pdf/CCF_MLV_2side_Velcro.pdf
    There probably won’t be space to go all the way to the edges. It’s not critical that you fully cover the MLV – just do the best you can. It is a good idea to use a temporary adhesive, like double stick tape during test fitting, before using HH-66 to permanently tack the CF and MLV together.

    Finally, use HH-66 Vinyl Cement to tack a layer of closed cell foam (CCF) on the side of the MLV facing the trim panel. When the trim panel is reinstalled, the CCF will compress slightly, getting rid of rattles and buzzes in the trim panel itself and between the trim panel and the inner door skin.

    Finally, cover as much of the trim panel as possible with 3M Thinsulate Acoustic. Use a few drops of hot glue to tack it in place. Make sure you don't interfere with any moving parts.

    Kick Panels (each):
    .5 CLD Tiles
    .7 ft² MLV
    .7 ft² 1/8" CCF
    1 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides (cut into thirds)

    Getting MLV and CCF into the kick panels is important because so many noises enter through the area. Exactly how you do this depends on what you find when you get there. Sometimes you can just run the MLV in a continuous piece up from the floor. In others, you’ll need to use a separate piece. Some cars have a rat’s nest of wiring behind the trim panel. In this case, consider mounting the CCF and MLV to the trim panel itself.

    Floor:
    6 CLD Tiles
    27.5 ft² MLV
    21.5 ft² 1/4" CCF
    6 ft² 1/8" CCF (under center console)
    2 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides (under center console)

    I've specified 1/3 as many CLD Tiles as the area would normally indicate. Most vehicles have some stock vibration damper on the floor. Assuming it is in good condition and you don't intend to pull it out, this should be enough to treat the bare metals areas. There's nothing to be gained from adding CLD Tiles on top of existing material.

    Cut 1/4" CCF to fit the bottoms of the floor pans and up into the foot wells and lay it in place. You really don't need any adhesive or other attachment products for the floor. Gravity, the carpet and trim panels will hold everything in place. Finally, lay MLV on top of the CCF, extending up and over the center tunnel, sills and everywhere you can without interfering with trim panel replacement. You will need to cut holes for the seat bolt downs and seat belt anchors if they are on the floor. Again, make these holes as small as possible. You are basically upholstering the floor with MLV. MLV is quite flexible and will easily follow a simple curve. Where it needs to be fitted to complex curves you will need to do some cutting. Use HH-66 to seal the seams in the MLV as you go, overlapping about 1/2".

    Back Seat Platform / Riser:
    3 CLD Tiles
    8.6 ft² MLV
    8.6 ft² 1/8" CCF
    3 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Roof:
    12 CLD Tiles
    19.2 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic

    CLD Tiles are the critical treatment for the roof - it's a large resonant panel directly over your head. I'm very impressed with the results I've gotten by filling the space between the headliner and roof with Thinsulate. It soaks up mid to high frequency sound that can make a very big difference in the noise levels inside the cabin. It's an excellent thermal insulator for good measure.

    I use a few drops of hot glue to hang the Thinsulate in place - it doesn't take much. Black side toward the roof, white side facing down.

    Cargo Area Floor:
    8 CLD Tiles
    14.2 ft² MLV
    14.2 ft² 1/8" CCF
    3 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Quarter Panels (each):
    4 CLD Tiles
    5.8 ft² MLV
    5.8 ft² 1/8" CCF
    2.5 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Hatch Door:
    3 CLD Tiles

    General Notes
    HH-66 is a contact adhesive that will only bond materials with vinyl content. That means MLV to MLV, CCF (like the material I sell with vinyl content) to CCF and MLV to CCF. You need to coat both surfaces and let them dry until just tacky, 3-5 minutes. Press the two parts together. The bond is more than strong enough to work with immediately. It will achieve its full strength after a few hours.In most cases you won't need to coat the entire surface - tacking in a few spots is usually sufficient.

    Velcro Strips can be cut in half (2â€X2â€), or thirds, for all but the most demanding applications. When working with the self-adhesive side(s) of the Velcro Strips press the entire assembly into place. It is a good idea to gently separate the hook and loop sides and press them down individually to make sure the bond is complete.

    I think it’s important that the MLV and CCF layers be removable. It’s just not a good idea to install these materials assuming that vehicle maintenance will never be required. Preserving the ability to remove and replace the barrier won’t harm performance and should be considered during installation.

    Overlapping MLV is one way to deal with seams. I usually prefer to cut 2†wide strips to use as “tapeâ€. I butt the pieces of MLV together and then use HH-66 to bond the 2†strip over the seam. This is almost always easier and makes it easier to follow compound curves.

    Totals:
    67 CLD Tiles
    1 roll Extruded Butyl Rope
    87.9 ft² MLV
    21.5 ft² 1/4" CCF
    78.6 ft² 1/8" CCF
    43.8 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic
    25 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides
    1 32 oz can HH-66 Vinyl Contact Cement

    As an Order:
    67 CLD Tiles @ 2.25 = $150.75
    1 roll Extruded Butyl Rope @ 8.75 = 8.75
    1 99 ft² roll MLV @ 158.90 = 158.90
    2 sheets 1/4" CCF @ 27.65 = 55.30
    6 sheets 1/8" CCF @ 14.55 = 87.30
    45 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic @ 3.70 = 166.50
    2 Velcro Strips, adh. 2 sides, 10-pack @ 14.65 = 29.30
    3 Velcro Strips, adh. 2 sides, 2-pack @ 3.25 = 9.75
    1 32 oz can HH-66 Vinyl Contact Cement @ 15.25 = 15.25
    1 2" Maple Roller (Free w/ 60+ CLD Tiles) N/C

    Sub Total: $681.80

    I don't have $681.80 right now to do all of this, but dang that was a detailed and helpful response. Obviously, he wants to sell his product, but I think this is extremely helpful in knowing what the best scenario could be. I'm wondering if anyone has personally used his products and could let us know if you'd recommend them, etc? Thanks for the help,

    Chris
  2. ravencr

    ravencr Member

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    So, I had responded to Don with the following question:

    Hey Don,

    Wow, that was a fantastic response…so detailed and helpful. You don't
    live near Boone, NC by chance do you…lol? This sounds like a ton of
    work. :) Plus, I can't afford to pay that much right now to sound
    deaden my car, although I'd really like to. If you were to start on
    the best bang for the buck, which sections would you do first? Thanks
    again for all the help…this is huge,

    Chris

    And, he responded with:

    Chris,

    Is 500 miles close ? :) I'm in Manchester, Maryland. Had a customer drive up from Charlotte last week. Up and back in one day.

    Before I get back to your question, I remember I forgot to answer your question about the hood. You don't get much improvement by treating the hood of most modern cars. Engine noise would have to pass through the hood and windshield to get inside the passenger compartment. The farther away the windshield gets from vertical, the less sound can make the trip. I've treated hoods on similar cars and gotten no measurable improvement. I always encourage people to treat the interior first. After that you'd be able to hear if any sound is coming in through he hood and windshield.

    My usual suggestion for a best bang for the buck or first phase are the doors. That will take a big chunk out of traffic noise, get the portion of tire/wheel noise that enters through the doors and improve the performance of door mounted speakers. Treating the doors can make a significant difference in overall noise levels.

    There's a potential downside related to the way we hear and perceive sound. In an untreated noisy car, noise is coming at you from every direction. That makes it difficult to localize and identify the individual sources. Cutting the noise off from a few directions makes it easier to hear what's left. A typical result is for the engine to sound louder after treating the doors. It isn't, it's just easier to hear.

    This is hard, or at least time consuming. You are rebuilding the vehicle to make it conform to a different design goal than the manufacturer's. Doing a full vehicle can easily take 2-3 days. I'd expect to spend a few hours on each door - more on the first one, less on each one after the first.

    Doing just the doors would look like this:

    Front Doors (each):
    6 CLD Tiles, outer skin
    1 CLD Tiles, probably cut into smaller pieces, inner skin
    Extruded Butyl Rope
    6.3 ft² MLV
    9.4 ft² 1/8" CCF
    6.3 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic
    2.5 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Rear Doors (each):
    5 CLD Tiles, outer skin
    1 CLD Tiles, probably cut into smaller pieces, inner skin
    Extruded Butyl Rope
    6 ft² MLV
    9 ft² 1/8" CCF
    6 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic
    2.5 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides

    Totals:
    26 CLD Tiles
    1 roll Extruded Butyl Rope
    24.6 ft² MLV
    36.8 ft² 1/8" CCF
    24.6 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic
    10 Velcro Strips, adhesive 2 sides
    1 8 oz can HH-66 Vinyl Contact Cement

    As an Order:
    It's important to have a single piece of MLV for each door. Since MLV comes on a 54" wide roll so a 36"X54" sheet will be enough for both front doors and 32"X54" sheet will do for both rear doors.

    26 CLD Tiles @ 2.45 = $63.70
    1 roll Extruded Butyl Rope @ 8.75 = 8.75
    1 36" X 54" sheet MLV @ 26.00 = 26.00
    1 32" X 54" sheet MLV @ 23.12 = 23.12
    3 sheets 1/8" CCF @ 14.95 = 44.85
    25 ft² 3M Thinsulate Acoustic @ 3.90 = 97.50
    1 Velcro Strips, adh. 2 sides, 10-pack @ 14.65 = 14.65
    1 8 oz can HH-66 Vinyl Contact Cement @ 8.50 = 8.50

    Sub Total: $287.07
    Shipping: 47.65
    Total: $334.72

    To cut back on this, I'd skip the Thinsulate. You'll still get a good result and can easily return to add it later.

    26 CLD Tiles @ 2.45 = $63.70
    1 roll Extruded Butyl Rope @ 8.75 = 8.75
    1 36" X 54" sheet MLV @ 26.00 = 26.00
    1 32" X 54" sheet MLV @ 23.12 = 23.12
    3 sheets 1/8" CCF @ 14.95 = 44.85
    1 Velcro Strips, adh. 2 sides, 10-pack @ 14.65 = 14.65
    1 8 oz can HH-66 Vinyl Contact Cement @ 8.50 = 8.50

    Sub Total: $189.57
    Shipping: 28.68
    Total: $218.25

    Now I just have to decide what I want to do...lol. So many options and too little time and money. :)

    Chris
  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that was incredibly helpful, what a nice guy. i wonder how much all that weighs?
  4. ravencr

    ravencr Member

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    I didn't ask him that, but I will.

    Chris
    1 person likes this.
  5. mtlewis

    mtlewis Tinkerer

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    This thread is very useful and interesting. I have been considering techniques for making my car quieter. There is a product called "Quiet car" which is a spray-on application. I think the 5 gallon size was under $300.00. I have not located any post on here about it and was wondering if it is as effective as all this checking, cutting, gluing etc. It seems like a lot less trouble and I would love to hear from someone who has tried it.
  6. SageBrush

    SageBrush Senior Member

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    I pity the car owner who has to take it apart later on.
  7. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    sounds like an undercoating scam, but i would love to hear more!
  8. mtlewis

    mtlewis Tinkerer

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    So I take it no one has tried it. If you want to look for yourself the site is quietcar.net. If it is a scam I am not sure how you would know.
  9. fulltank

    fulltank New Member

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    I never would have guessed that there are Sound Deadening professionals. How stinkin' cool!!! Agree that the Prius does have a lot of noise so I might check my area for one of these companies. I'd pay $400-500 for a quality job.
  10. ravencr

    ravencr Member

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    I asked him today finally, and he responded and said roughly 120lbs for the full treatment.

    Chris
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  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's not too bad, i wonder what the hit to mpg's will be? i would have to drive one to see. if it was quiet enough, i would go for it. thanks!
  12. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    Same as a 120lb passenger....not much. Prolly hard to measure the difference.
  13. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    might be worth it if it puts you in lexus class quiet!:)
  14. xs650

    xs650 Senior Member

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    A small price to pay.:rockon:
  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    considering that i was ready to pony up for the lexus just for the build quality until i found out it was smaller and much lower mpg's!
  16. Philatc

    Philatc Pushing Tin

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    I can deal with the road noise compared to the lost in empty weight. Wow 120lbs huh? :eek:
  17. andyprius

    andyprius Senior Member

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    I have never had such a detailed and professional answer from any business. I hope his line of work is most succesful!
  18. ravencr

    ravencr Member

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    120lbs is nothing really. I've had my prius completely loaded down to the ceiling with heavy construction tools plus a huge hitch box full of tools and it only dropped my mpgs a few mpg, and that was probably mostly aerodynamics not weight. These cars are amazingly efficient and capable.

    Chris
  19. mtlewis

    mtlewis Tinkerer

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    I just checked and Manchester is only 15-1/2 hours away. Might have to fill up along the way.
  20. Danger

    Danger Member

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    With the added weight you just have to find ways to lighten other areas like wheels and LRR tires.
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