Washer/Dryer Energy Guides unhelpful/misleading

I've decided to go ahead and sell my ~19 year old washer and dryer set so that I can go to a front loader design. The old ones still work about the same as when new and I could probably easily repair them for another 19 years since I know their guts pretty well now, but the "super capacity" top loader just doesn't seem to hold a candle to a front loader design's efficiency.

Now I could get most of the bang for the buck simply by replacing only the washer--very favorable economics for that, about a six year payback, max. But my old dryer doesn't have a moisture sensor either and that's been a continual issue. Today I measured how much juice the dryer is pulling and how long it is running on its medium setting. For a large load it is using about 4.4 kWh and taking more than an hour. While I expect a new dryer to be just as bad for doing the initial drying, at least it won't overdry. I've assumed only a 15% savings in drying (after accounting for the front loader water reduction), but 25% is more likely.

The disappointing thing is the EPA/Energy Guide system is utterly worthless in helping one to justify washer or dryer replacement. They rate the washer, but not the effect it has on drying--at least not on the yellow sticker where it should be. (It does factor into the Energy Star criteria.) And the info on the yellow sticker doesn't break down heated water, the number of loads, electrical consumption by the washer, and electric (and sometimes gas) consumption by the dryer. The washer is where the money is to be saved in the process, but the metered savings is in the dryer because of the higher spin of the front loading washer reducing the dryer's load.

So I've worked through the numbers myself and come up with savings as follows:
1. Reduced water heating for warm/cold loads, about 10.4 therms/year ($10.4/year).
2. Reduced water use, about 6200 gal/year ($20.3/year).
3. Reduced electrical drying cost due to faster spin, about 686 kWh/yr, ($68.6/year). This assumes that the front loader leaves half as much water behind as the top loader--perhaps a conservative estimate based on some data I've seen.
4. Reduced electrical use because of moisture sensor capabilities (less overdrying), at least 103 kWh/yr, ($10.3/year).

I can't say that the basis is correct, but it is defensible.

Sum ~ $110/year. This of course doesn't account for clothes lasting longer since they will not be worn down by the agitator and it doesn't address clothes being inadvertently shrunk/damaged through repeated over drying (YMMV.) The justification for doing the dryer upgrade is in the harder-to-quantify area of garment life...probably exceeds the value of the other savings but I can't quantify it at present.

p.s. There are some complaints about vibration of front loaders at high spin rates. This however should not be a problem for me as this will be basement (concrete) floor--less solid/more flexible surfaces are more problem prone. I doubt it will have nearly the tendency to vibrate as a "walking" unbalanced top-loader. (My wife thinks I'm nuts because I'm so particular about loading the old top loader...but the effort pays off, it never gets unbalanced on me. When she loads certain types of laundry we sometimes believe it's going to knock the walls down before I can flip the top to stop the spin.)

 

That's not anywhere close! I'm looking at $595 for a new LG, a bit more with tax. I figure I can get around $200 out of my old set as they look pretty good, (perhaps only $150 or $100 if I'm desperate--market will dictate, but I'm pretty good at pricing things to sell.)

Differential is around $200 from what I can tell.

 

Icarus,

For us the biggest energy cost is in the drying, not the wash (heat of vaporization vs. sensible heat.) This is the major flaw in the current Energy Guide system for providing information to consumers about a washer's performance. We rarely use the hot cycle, but use the warm cycle frequently. Warm cycle is a 50/50 mix of hot and cold, then cold for the rinse. While there is some cost to this, it is not large since only 25% of the water added is hot water...and we don't use warm all the time either (would use it less if I had my way.) It looks like I'm paying more for the water than for the heating of some of the water.

Now, if one air dries, then things will be different, but for heated drying it's a matter of evaporating the water (and heating the air that goes with it...as well as removing conditioned air from the house.) I've read a few posts by folks measuring water extraction in old top loader vs. front loader or high efficiency top loader and the weight of water left behind was typically about half. This shows up in comments about drying times (as well as the Modified Efficiency Factor, but it is not on the energy guide or explained.)

My in-laws have a front loader and are happy with it. Like I said, I don't anticipate vibration being a problem since this will be on concrete. Once it is leveled properly I expect it to be no worse than a top loader.

There are potential concerns with having electronics and interlocks of course. That's the part that makes me cross my fingers for any purchase anymore. It's one reason I've been waiting on refrigerator replacement as well.

A potential concern is mildew, an issue that some have. The door must be left open after washing to combat the problem and other steps may be necessary. Of course, I had a problem with this in my top loader in humid southwest Georgia in an outdoor utility room. After I moved from there it still took me about 3 months here before the stench finally went away, even though I ran several batches of mildewcide through it and disassembled the tub to scrub off remaining scum at the upper waterline, etc.

 

I do recognize that reviews rarely provide much information about long term durability (except when the product is failing from the start). However, my old Whirpool's transmission failed within warranty and was replaced. All these years later I've not had any trouble with the drive again. Instead I've had to replace the water control valves twice (they go out about every 8 years, run about $25 for parts) and I had to replace the lid switch a few months ago (think it was about $15). My old rubber hoses were beginning to bulge so I replaced these with braided line as well.

One of the issues with the top loader I have is that it really does a poor job on the large load setting. The agitator just can't churn the tank properly when the level is higher (probably an L/D problem along with the necessity of using narrower agitator vanes higher up, the pumping power is on the bottom). It gets clothes clean enough on average, but it really does best on medium load size, and that's wasteful too.

jayman wrote:

Seems reasonable and I noticed a section about regularly cleaning the water inlet screens in the online manual (along with a post or two about water problems in reviews.) Hard water would likely have much more trouble as noted in the manual...but I suspect it would also do in my old machine's valves quicker than their present 8 year cycle life.

My water pressure is on the very high side. It is so high that the "catastrophic shut off valves" for washers don't work. I tried a set of them (skeptically) but the checks were too sensitive, so back to the store they went. Didn't surprise me as I've seen the same sort of thing in process services with sight glass checks.

It follows that vibration problems and bearing failures would go hand-in-hand. It's possible that some machines might not be well balanced from the manufacturer, in which case they should be sent back.

When it comes to unbalanced it's hard to match a top loader marching around the room beating things to death from an unbalanced load.

 

Gas dryer or electric drying? Okay, I haven't completely settled on the gas vs. electric aspect of drying, but will probably pull the trigger tomorrow (sales and calendar issues.) The current dryer is electric and my first impression was that gas wouldn't save much...but then I looked closer and plugged in local energy prices. Price wise natural gas here runs about 10:1 as much per unit CCF as per unit of kWh electric. From what I can gather about relative drying times and consumption gas drying has a considerable advantage with the above pricing. I can probably cut drying costs by another third.

I've got natural gas available in the utility room, but would need to make a new run for a gas dryer--either doing a convoluted routing off an existing nipple since it is not well positioned (in the way of absolutely everything), or cutting into the run to add a tee and drop. I would also need to upgrade some of the dryer exhaust vent that is presently flexible foil/wire. I would be stuck with both appliances running on the same 110V electrical circuit (something the manual prohibits, but based on the loads appears to be overkill.)

I had a gas dryer in college and it worked extremely well, but I'm concerned about a couple of things with gas: 1. Even with the moisture sensors I wonder if it might have more tendency to overheat some items (shrinkage, aging.) 2. The new burner flame sensor/flame arrestor requirements make gas water heaters and dryers an order of magnitude less reliable than in the past--I've already got one of these potential albatrosses (water heater with a horrid model failure history), and am not so sure that I want to add another. 3. Exhaust issues (CO, acid gas condensation, etc.) since I will have ~20 ft horizontal run between floor space to the outside. I'm going to try to get a rough estimate on the work tomorrow AM so that I can calculate payback time.

Going back with electric seems a lot less risky, but I hate leaving easy money/efficiency improvement on the table. If it wasn't for the serious early failure issues with new burner systems designed to prevent morons from blowing up their houses when they poured gasoline on the floor underneath open flames I would be inclined to go with gas. (Personally, I think we would be better off culling the gene pool by having reliable burners.)

 

Update:
My rough estimate from a reputable contractor with reasonable pricing is that it would run about $500 to run the gas drop and replace the old exhaust/vent line. I might be able to cut that by half, but it still makes the conversion considerably less attractive...and then there is the permitting/inspection.

The contractor was less concerned about the new flame sensor systems, but was familiar with the problems in the Whirlpool flamelocks (water heater) that have me gunshy. They said there was no problem with the Rheem and A.O. Smith's. but they've replaced quite a few existing Whirlpools from Lowes.

If I was doing a new build in this area I would go for gas. And in situations where one is considering PV solar or otherwise trying to minimize electrical load (especially peaks) gas would be a no brainer.

Oh well, can't win 'em all.

 

I placed my order for the LG front loader and electric dryer. Via negotiation I got them a little cheaper than anticipated ($585 each), no interest for 18 months. I usually pay things off up front, but won't pass on a deal like that. I did take out a 5 year P&L plan on the washer (but not the dryer) for $80 so my exposure on the more complicated part is zip. I'm pretty sure that was the key to getting the price break. Delivery is free...I was originally going to haul them myself today, but I also pulled the trigger on the new refrigerator and it is back ordered. This gives me time to use up my old detergent so it is all good.

 

True, if I was doing a build from scratch then I would be looking at a combination of solar water heat and demand rather than a traditional tank.

I do some line drying in the house from a damp state already. I believe line drying outside is specifically banned from the covenants of the neighborhood homeowner's association although I used to do this other places I lived.

The front loader should help in getting clothes to a state where I can do more drying on the rack in utility room. The dampness control on the dryer should help as well.

PV solar is not something I can consider any time soon in this home. (It is something I would be keen on doing in any new build however.) The crest of the main roof runs due North-South unfortunately, with enough pitch that the annual efficiency probably would be fairly poor. There is some premium space on a section running East-West that should be better but it is not that large.

The AC/furnace will need replacement in the next few years and that should make a considerable difference--perhaps 2,000 kWh/year in AC and blower, and another 100 ccF in natural gas.