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What would be more offensive? To burn the American Flag or to burn the bible?

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by burritos, Jul 17, 2006.

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  1. burritos

    burritos Senior Member

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    If they ever make it an amendment against burning the flag, should there be one against burning the bible? I would assume that they are equally offensive.
  2. efusco

    efusco Troll Slayer Staff Member

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    Burning of flags is a political statement against the gov't or the status quo. And it is a powerful statement. The proof of that is the fact that our gov't has spent so much time and money to create a law to try to prevent us from making a statement against our own gov't.

    The irony, of course, is that since it is now illegal, the statement is that much more powerful. But I'm just a dumb ER doc, not a fancy schmancy politician.

    And burning of books, at least intact ones, is terrible IMO. But neither should it be illegal...unless it is the gov't doing the burning.
  3. fshagan

    fshagan New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco @ Jul 16 2006, 10:15 PM) [snapback]287431[/snapback]</div>

    Didn't the proposed amendment fail to garner enough votes in the Senate to be passed on to the states? You can still safely burn a flag in a desecration ritual, or wipe your butt with it like Marilyn Manson did (to the wild cheers of his audience). While you're at it, go spit on the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier (although you will get arrested for that ... spitting on a monument is still against the law).

    The Supreme Court invalidated all the flag desecration laws in a number of decisions over the past years, so the drive to add a constitutional amendment was in reaction to what some claim is judicial fiat. I'm sympathetic to that view, but I'm also very hesitant to add things to the constitution. For the most part, our amendments to the constitution should limit government's actions, not the citizen's actions. So I don't agree that constitutional amendments are valid for things like flag desecration, prayer in school, etc.

    The Bible wouldn't qualify for that same kind of protection, and no one is seriously suggesting it. Questions like this are meant to simply inflame and create more heat than light. They are in the same category as "Do you still beat your wife", intended to embarrass a certain group. Too bad you couldn't ask about the pros and cons of the issue instead.
  4. TJandGENESIS

    TJandGENESIS Are We Having Fun Yet?

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    I say, burn a flag covered bible. That should take care of it all.
  5. mssmith95

    mssmith95 New Member

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    I don't agree with flag burning, but I also don't agree with jailing someone for doing it.

    If the are jailed for the lighting of the fire itself (it doesn't matter what they are burning), I can understand, as that can easily get out of control.

    They only time I can see a flag burning and it not bother me would be if Osama was wrapped in it!

    As far as burning a bible...again, I am torn.

    If you burn someone else's bible (not your religion) in an attempt to provoke them, I can see you being charged with inciting a riot (or whatever they call it). Again, the actual burning is not the real issue with me.
  6. livelychick

    livelychick Missin' My Prius

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    I think neither are offensive.

    Ya know what I do think is offensive? The wearing of the flag as underwear, etc. I mean, what's up with that? Back in the day in Girl Scouts, we learned from big specifics about how to handle the flag, the importance of it not touching the ground, how to dispose of old flags, etc. Nowadays, you see it EVERYWHERE...underwear, raggedy car flags, etc.

    I have no problem with someone making a political statement by burning an object they feel symoblizes something that has betrayed them.

    I DO have a problem with someone thinking they're being patriotic by wearing a flag on their ass. Seems like a much worse infraction of propriety.

    Just MHO.
  7. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Jul 17 2006, 09:33 AM) [snapback]287506[/snapback]</div>

    It depends upon your point of view. Ask a war veteran who fought for our flag and you will get a response that will probably differ from an American anarchist.

    Either way it is all about your own behavior to each item you listed above - I personally believe that one should respect both. If one chooses not to, that is their decision - how they do that reflects more on them than the act itself in my opinion.
  8. withersea

    withersea DNF is better than DNS

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    If we protect the Bible, the same law would also protect other religious texts whether we agree with them or not.
  9. sharkmeister

    sharkmeister Junior Member

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    It has to be said that burning is a dramatic act generally performed in an effort to get attention.

    Millions of people ignore both the flag and the bible every day. Isn't this in many ways more offensive than the heavy drama?

    But in the end the reality of freedom has to be held higher than the symbols of freedom.

    Also, if Sitchin's translations have anything to do with truth, we see that there are dozens of places where the bible abbreviated or glossed over truth to the point that it can be misleading.

    Don't you think saying "it can be misleading" is just so much more polite than saying it's a pack of lies?

    I thank God that the truth is deeper than a goody-two-shoes trip by primitives who exalt both flag and bible as worthy of great reverence, and who, in their actions stand against both freedom and compassion at every opportunity!
  10. wstander

    wstander New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(withersea @ Jul 17 2006, 07:32 AM) [snapback]287522[/snapback]</div>


    Well, reasonably it should.

    I don't want any aberration of the US Constitution that favors a state supported religion or set of religions. Best not to even start down THAT path.
  11. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(livelychick @ Jul 17 2006, 09:33 AM) [snapback]287506[/snapback]</div>

    They are only offensive if a person decides to let them be offensive. Same thing with an upraised middle finger - it's only offensive by common agreement. Some actions are inherently offensive, such as spitting on someone or urinating on their feet, but most offensive things are just symbolic actions. Burning a flag or a bible is just symbolic. I think both are strong enough to withstand the symbolism, so burn away if it makes you feel better.

    Tom
  12. dbermanmd

    dbermanmd New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(qbee42 @ Jul 17 2006, 12:04 PM) [snapback]287561[/snapback]</div>

    Symbols can be very important to people. People wear a Cross or Star of David - just symbols. We put our hands on the Bible as we are sworn to tell the truth and the whole truth. People will carry a flag into battle and not a gun - the symbol of the flag being raised on Mt Surabachi on Iwo Gima is burned in this countries psychy forever.

    Yes they are symbols, but humans tend to define symbols with life like qualities at times - again, it depends on the person and the environment at that time. I honor both.
  13. withersea

    withersea DNF is better than DNS

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 11:28 AM) [snapback]287546[/snapback]</div>

    I agree wholeheartedly. The problem (especially here in the south) is that many religious extremists would be shocked to discover that Jesus wasn't a white guy who walked around speaking King's English. They think that their belief should be shrouded with protection at the expense of all others.
  14. jtmhog

    jtmhog Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dbermanmd @ Jul 17 2006, 02:34 PM) [snapback]287637[/snapback]</div>

    Hang em high!! Its un-American!
  15. wstander

    wstander New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jtmhog @ Jul 17 2006, 11:55 AM) [snapback]287648[/snapback]</div>

    I disagree, protesting is VERY American! The flag is merely a symbol of the very freedoms that we enjoy, one of which is to call attention to perceived wrongs.
  16. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    Why would anyone want to do either? Such "statements" are virtually always counter productive. The idea in any discourse is to win people over to your side, or at least get them to listen to your argument with a somewhat open mind. Destroying things that have symbolic value to other people only turns those people against you, you automatically lose the argument as far as they are concerned without saying a word. The legality is irrelevant, it is foolish to do things that serve no purpose except to anger the opposition.
  17. Salsawonder

    Salsawonder New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wstander @ Jul 17 2006, 12:00 PM) [snapback]287653[/snapback]</div>

    Well said. Without protests we would still be a colony of England. To be American should mean that you do question your government, that someone is willing to stand up for the rights of others. Whether we agree with a position or not we must support the ability to make a statement that involves a "symbol", not like the terrorist factions who use human life to make a statement.
  18. jtullos

    jtullos New Member

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    According to United State Code, Title 4, Chapter 1, Section 8, Statute k:



    So how should we retire a flag if we can't burn it? As for the Bible, burning the Bible is just as offensive as burning any other holy text. Which to me is not at all offensive, unless I have to smell it. But I'm an Atheist, and that fact will bias my opinion a little.

    There's a few other interesting bits regarding respect for the flag:







  19. bruceb

    bruceb New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(burritos @ Jul 17 2006, 12:10 AM) [snapback]287426[/snapback]</div>

    Although I find burning the flag a cowardly act, I would agree with several posters that the Constitution is a wonderful document as it is, and modifying it, by any party ,should not even be considered without fierce debate. That being said, the positive thing about flag burning is that it spotlights the people who will henceforth be my enemy.... I now know them..... put THAT in your hippie pipe and smoke it...... ;)
  20. efusco

    efusco Troll Slayer Staff Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(jtullos @ Jul 17 2006, 02:39 PM) [snapback]287684[/snapback]</div>

    That is taken into account in the wording of the proposed amendment. The point of the amendment is to quash desecration and the use of burning the flag as a form of public protest.
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