Hello Fellow Auto Enthusiasts..

Evan those are not local polices. FDCapt and I provided many links earlier this week that showed them which you and certain members of your staff proceeded to delete citing the toyota ERG guide as gospel

 

Welcome back Dave,

I have strong doubts that the thread was deleted due to the links you and FDCapt provided. The other thread content seemed much more culpable.

Here are the links I managed to harvest from that thread before it vanished. Can you add any more links that I missed? I'll try to review the list later, from the perspective of an engineer in an unrelated industry.

http://www.asde.net/%7Ebflorea/extrication%20safety%20notice.pdf

EXTRICATION SAFETY - New Gas-Electric Vehicles and new Airbags

http://www.drwenterprises.org/downloads/HybridVehiclePPE.pdf

Emergency Responder Guide Lines

Hybrid Vehicle Safety Hazards

Hybrid Dangers - wtvr

Hybrid Vehicle Training Program - Emergency Training Solutions, LLC

 

Correct! Which is why they are universally color-coded orange

Having spent close to 15 years in the petrochemical industry, yes, I am well aware that relays can fail or stick. Switches can also fail, perhaps the best example being the Ford cruise control cancel switch which was located on the brake line

When the switch failed, it shorted, and the end result was a vehicle that burst into flames. If parked inside an attached garage, that means usually the house went up in flames too. Without a single high voltage hybrid battery system in sight

Although a relay may stick, a fuse will often blow early. In the event of a dead short, with the relay stuck closed, fuses in the inverter/converter and in the battery can will blow

Ok, I'll bite

Hybrid Vehicles

NFPA :: News & Publications :: NFPA Journal® :: November/December 2009 :: Features

http://www.extrication.com/Hybrid Part-1 Ron Shaw.pdf

http://www.extrication.com/Hybrid Part-2 Ron Shaw.pdf

http://www.extrication.com/Hybrid Part-3 Ron Shaw.pdf

http://www.extrication.com/Hybrid Part-4 Ron Shaw.pdf

http://www.drwenterprises.org/downloads/HybridVehiclePPE.pdf

On the topic of vehicle safety, I wish more vehicles had an inertia cutoff for the electric fuel pump. In the event of a crash or a rollover, the fuel pump should immediately stop running!

Having provided consulting on the dangers of common organophosphates and pesticides in rural agricultural areas, I'm convinced that there is a lot of misinformation out there. I have no problem providing training and risk awareness, but one thing that turns me right off is the bravado that some rescue workers feel that they have to show to an "outsider"

Fine. I get paid whether they listen or goof off, and I sincerely intend for the audience to learn from the presentation. If they chose not to, they are the ones who will ultimately have to pay a price.

Not me

On the topic of high voltage safety, I have also given some lectures on this. My primary warning to anybody who has to respond to the scene of a crash, where utility lines are draped over the vehicle: assume the lines are live, or will soon be re-energized

A lot of people are not aware that most MV and HV distribution uses fault protection in the form of a "recloser." The recloser cycle is based on what the needs of a utility company are. In an area with a lot of trees that may dangle limbs on a wire, you want a fairly quick reclose, say 15-25 secs, to re-energize and hopefully make the fault temporary

In the case of other utility co's, they may set the reclose for 2-5 mins. If work is being done in the area, say trenching or adding a new line, they will lock out the recloser

From what I have seen, most well trained rescue units are trained for at least basic HV safety, eg they have deadsticks (Non conductive plastic pole used to latch and unhook the manual circuit) and basic arc flash protection training and gear

Here is an example of an arcflash event, caught by a security camera on an outdoor switch unit. WARNING: graphic content!

Magna Electric - Video of Arc Flash Incident

You will notice they almost instantly burst into flames? Arc flash events are horrific

 

Yes, I agree. Which is why proper training is necessary, proper training unfortunately is very time consuming and expensive

Over my career, I have not only worked in petrochemicals, but on advanced fly-by-wire avionics for military aircraft and civilian airliners. As a design consultant and engineering consultant, its a bit daunting the level of misinformation out there

Whether you are a First Responder, or a forensic accident reconstruction engineer, the goals are the same: ensure quick but safe response, try to figure out what went wrong, then ensure it never happens again

As an example, a non fly-by-wire but still very advanced aircraft, a Boeing 767, experienced disturbing malfunctions while enroute from Schiphol airport in Amsterdam to the United States. Many of the advanced systems, including the display screens and autopilot, failed

Upon landing, there was no reverse thrust, no spoiler deployment, and no anti-skid. As a result, the aircraft blew out all the tires due to locked wheels.

The culprit? A loose shunt connection on the battery bus bar.

NYC96IA116

http://www.flightsafety.org/amb/amb_jan_feb99.pdf

The moral of that story? No matter how well meaning or advanced the system, FOLLOW THE BASICS!! Which involves PROPER TRAINING, not anecdotal stories

I searched around OSHA and NFPA. Came across this

http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/PDF/Research/FireSafetyVehicles.pdf

Searched JEMS and came across this

New Hybrid Respond Guide

Reminds me of when airbags first became mandated. There was a huge amount of misinformation out there. Although hybrid vehicles now make up a minor proportion of total vehicle sales, in the future they will potentially become common

Just as we had to adjust to power steering, fuel injection (Ever get caught "pumping" the gas pedal when fuel injection first came out? I did, hard habit to break!), ABS, and airbags, we will have to adjust and learn about hybrid technology too

Yes, that is a two-way street. As an engineer, I always keep an open mind.

But .... and this is a rather large "but" .... I can't make up s*** to suit my own agenda. Every thing I do, every little f***ing thing, I have to document, test, retest, PROVE, and then - finally - submit to my peers for review

Even then, if my peers think I am full of s***, it goes nowhere. Welcome to the world of engineers! Folks wonder why even basic research seems to take forever, that is why

So, if you have something that is genuinely of a concern, it should be properly documented in proper channels, eg the "chain of command." But unless I missed something, the official channels claim the hybrid "fear" is based more on lack of knowledge, than on fact

When that bulletin or email is from a credible and official source, at what point do we ignore it and try to wing it?

It's like what I tell folks when they piss and moan about Microsoft: "If you don't like Windows, feel free to create a better operating system, put your name on it, and sell it. It's a free country, you can do that, you know"

Using engineering as an example, do I make things up, or do I follow credible sources like the CRC Handbook? Obviously, I have to follow the established and credible sources

There appears to be a lot of contradiction among some of the sources. Could you please cite examples? Preferably without heated dialog

Well, in my case, I have a degree in chemical engineering and a degree in computer science. I recently shifted my consulting from petrochemicals to Federal agencies

Among other endeavours, have provided consulting to Federal agencies on Critical Infrastructure protection, and the terrorism threat from agribusiness, eg the relative ease of obtaining organophosphates.

I'm not going to get into why that is such a concern. I'm sure you're well aware of the risk, at least you should be.

Yes, with any new vehicle, gone are the days of "simple" extractions. One must contend with highly computerized vehicles, that may or may not be "off" when you expect them to be. Electric fuel pumps may keep running, pumping fuel over a hot motor

Airbags built into the seats and headliner may or may not deploy once you start removing a roof to extract a trapped patient. Due to the times we live in, there may or may not be a potential chemical threat inside, eg organophosphates.

Also, due to the times we live in, more and more nondescript vehicles may be equipped with very advanced offensive and defensive systems, used by VIP transport:

Chevy Suburban 2008 with armored bumper

They appear to be telling us that proper training is essential

I completely agree. Just as airbags added an entirely new level of danger, until proper understanding and training dealt with that. I have no doubt a large city rescue crew has had proper training.

But the small "backwater" county unit may not have. Even with grants, that training is far from cheap

But proper training is essential, I'm sure you will agree with that. Just as I find myself constantly being updated on new technology, you must be too

Unfortunately, I have felt that after providing lectures on proper chemical agent safety and handling, the majority of the audience simply didn't care

Did I just have a bad crowd? Or is this the norm?

I have consistently received very positive feedback from my peers regarding the quality, depth, and concise nature of my presentations.

Why is it that fellow engineers have no problem asking me questions, or seeking clarification on a point, but those in rescue work do not?

 

If they refuse to listen, well, they have to pay the price in the end

Very satisfied with it. Just myself in it usually. Purchased originally as a second vehicle to drive out to my hobby farm, which for the 97 miles was all pavement except the last 2 miles. Those last 2 miles were pretty bad

I had 160 acres next to Crown land, where a cutting operation started up a couple of years ago. The road really became bad, the FJ ground clearance was absolutely essential

A co-worker recently bought that property. I had 320 acres vacant land much closer to where I live, only 30 miles, but half of that is on gravel roads. Some of the roads aren't even maintained in winter, so I need a 4x4 more than ever

For winter, I now run factory-studded Nokian winter tires on it. I never use 4H on public roads. This is from a surprise ice/snow storm back in October





A closeup of the studded tires





Their website

Nokian Hakkapeliitta 5 SUV

I had always assumed a stud was a stud. The factory studded Nokians have a special square design, their grip on glare ice is amazing

My vehicle business travel is very much reduced now, but its easier to write off a multipurpose vehicle up here than a passenger car.