1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Electronic Test Equipment Qs

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by Patrick Wong, Apr 1, 2011.

  1. FL_Prius_Driver

    FL_Prius_Driver Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2007
    4,319
    1,527
    0
    Location:
    Tampa Bay
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    I
    It heated the lab I was in quite efficiently.
     
  2. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,074
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Patrick, since you are starting to mess around with tube circuits, I only have one comment: B+ voltage.

    :D

    Tom
     
    1 person likes this.
  3. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hi Tom,

    Thanks for the safety reminder. There's around 400V involved with this particular unit, if you consider the positive and negative supplies.

    I originally learned analog electronics back in the 60s when tubes were still in the mainstream. Fortunately I didn't get zapped back then (when working with transmitter tube voltages up to 3 kV), and will attempt to maintain that safety record.
     
  4. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I am in the process of buying an HP 8640B with option 003 (reverse RF power protection.) This commercial (not military option 323) unit apparently was used by the FAA Atlanta office and was recently retired. Supposedly it is in excellent working order and is cosmetically almost perfect. I will post about that in late May after I've received the unit the week of May 23.

    The HP 608D produces rated RF output on all bands but the final amplifier tube is marginal in terms of barely producing the correct output at lower frequencies. As a result, AM modulation is distorted on the lowest band (~10 MHz.) If I reduce the RF output below the calibrated level, then the modulation will not be distorted but the output attenuator no longer is calibrated so I have to use my oscilloscope to determine the modulation % and measure RF output. The modulation level meter cannot be relied upon if the RF output is not at the correct level.

    I verified that the regulated power supply voltages are correct and do not droop down under modulation. I also measured the available voltage from the modulation amplifier and it can be adjusted well above the amount that is supposed to be required. The final RF amplifier is cathode-modulated.

    Prior to buying this old RF signal generator I would not thought that it would be easier for a given final amplifier tube to amplify VHF frequencies vs. HF frequencies. Nor would I have thought that it is easier to AM modulate the final amplifier tube at VHF frequencies vs. HF (a lesser modulation voltage is required for a given % modulation, as operating frequency increases.)

    These old tubes are not easy to find and are fairly expensive so I'll live with this condition as-is. The HP 608D won't get much use after the more modern HP 8640B arrives in May.
     
  5. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,805
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Your very welcome Pat. You will use this thing everytime you fix something. Replacing caps is about the only thing left in cursory repair of most electronics or your up against what you posted about with the surface mounts. Thats just not fun though as most of us are half blind.
    Get the ESR kit it's fun and easy and the pcb is very high quality and takles solder perfectly. It will last 20 years.
    Its a precision low ohm meter. You won't know how you lived without it.

    As far as caps in the stuff your talking about not many lectro's in those things but you still cannot go wrong replacing any in there as a maint thing.

    One of my co-worker's, the microwave-high power vhf transmitter engineer is a very hard core ham. He is a brilliant nut job like most lifetime hams. He loves showing me pictures of ham antenna farms all over the world.
    Have you ever seen the antenna farm by the owner of Rhode & Schwarz fame in Sweden. OMG it looks like a Nazi WWII radar facility. Like 200 ft high & motorized.
    I'll see if I can get a photo or link.
     
    1 person likes this.
  6. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,805
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hey Pat check these sites out. I got a little mixed up with all the stories my buddy tells me. The most serious antenna is owned by a group of guys in Finland mostly headed by the owner of Nokia Marti Laine OH8X.

    Ulrich Rohde's rig is no slouch for sure and his bench with every piece of R & S equipment is ridiculous.

    The other link is from a very serious ham named Zach Reynolds of RJ Reynolds fame. His life story is amazing and my buddy was at his house as a young teen and saw first hand all his amazing radios and antenna's and world class power transmitters. A multi millionaire who ended up getting killed in a small plane crash after swearing off flying in small planes for years as it was so dangerous.
    An absolute amazing life.

    The sad story is my buddy has been talking to a US Soldier stationed in Afghan who was one of the eight who were killed recently by the guy who opened fire at that meeting.
    Very sad as my friend has been talking to him over the air for over a year. The soldiers name was James.

    DJ2LR Munich Germany

    Radio Arcala

    Check out all the thumbnail pictures on this site. Check out his
    vintage high powered transmitters and gear:
    Zach Reynolds, heir to the R.J. Reynolds Tobacco Fortune, lived the American Dream.#

    Enjoy!!
     
    1 person likes this.
  7. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I received the unit and it appears to be in excellent operating condition for a 30-year old unit. I have tested it in all frequency ranges and with CW, AM and FM modulation. AM modulation is reasonably good up to 90%, then there is some distortion which can be heard and also seen on the oscilloscope.

    The frequency is remarkably stable even when not locked.

    A couple of photos are attached of the generator and of my Kenwood TS2000 showing an S9 reading for a 30 uV signal at 14.16 MHz.
     

    Attached Files:

  8. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,805
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
     
    1 person likes this.
  9. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I recently bought a couple of pieces of test equipment: a Tek oscilloscope and a HP function generator. The scope worked great (apparently it had been calibrated 10 years ago, then stored in its shipping box until it was sold to me) while the function generator did not produce output. I negotiated $100 off the purchase price, and found the attenuator board was bad: a failed relay, a missing 51 ohm resistor, and a couple of bad 0.1 uF capacitors that absorb voltage spikes as the relay coils are switched. Now its working really well.

    I also did some work on the HP 1725A oscilloscope, replacing 32 capacitors in the vertical preamp and horizontal sweep sections. Now it works more stably and predictably, it is a good unit but the Tek, being 10 years younger and with more features, is much better.
     

    Attached Files:

  10. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,805
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Nice scope. 350 mhz. Love it. Workhorse.

    We have a bunch of 2465's at work. We lost a few to the dreaded v/h drive jungle ic failure which is nla.
    There they sit.
    There's thousands of those dead scopes out there with that chip blown. I lost one on a 2465 I owned years ago and it pissed me off so bad I swore never to buy another Tek scope again. Thats didn't last long though! HA! But I still prefer my Sencore but its only a 100 mhz scope. But its trigger circuits are superior.
    Its been a while but its one of the very big ic's on the top board and it gets hot as sh*t and has no heatsink. A well placed heatsink on that device will extend your new scopes life many years.
    If not sure which one let me know as I have the print to it.
     
    1 person likes this.
  11. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,317
    10,167
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I'm always happy to see a member of the extended family get a new home where it is useful and appreciated.
     
    1 person likes this.
  12. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hi Ed,

    Thanks! I've heard about the U800 horizontal output IC trouble spot. I need to open up the scope to see whether the chip already has a heat sink installed; if not then I'll buy one and install it.

    The scope has >18,000 power-on hours BTW, according to the counter.

    I notice on eBay a few of the Tek 2465B/2467B scopes are advertised as having very low power on hours. However since the power-on and power cycle counts can be easily adjusted (much like a trip odometer) I do not see the point of paying a $1,000+ premium for that.

    There is too much incentive to cheat. Alternatively, it is possible that a prior owner may have cleared those counters, then the scope changed hands and eventually ended up with someone who was not aware that the counters had been previously zeroed out.
     
  13. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Are you (or had you been) employed by HP or Agilent? I have an HP connection via prior employment at Tandem/Compaq in Cupertino, CA, as well as HP being a major customer of a subsequent employer.

    I think it is amazing that quality lab test equipment from HP and Tektronix is available for such low prices on eBay. Since parts are more-or-less available on the 1980's-vintage and older equipment, I find it reasonable to take the risk that a failed unit can be economically repaired.
     
  14. fuzzy1

    fuzzy1 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    17,317
    10,167
    90
    Location:
    Western Washington
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I was employed there, at the facility that inherited the 3325A and developed the 3325B. But I was on a different product line.
     
    1 person likes this.
  15. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Hi Ed,

    I opened up the 2467 and took a few photos including one of the infamous U800, which is not equipped with a heatsink. It has two screws and nuts holding it in place.

    I just ordered this heatsink:
    http://www.qservice.tv/vpasp/shopexd.asp?id=1807&bc=no

    I ran the unit for a while with the cabinet removed. The temperature of U800 is around 125 degrees F. Compare to the hybrid units which range around 90+ degrees F. I assume that those temps would be ~10 degrees F higher with the cabinet on.

    Here's one discussion that questions how useful the heatsink actually is in prolonging U800 life, much like the PC discussions about whether or not it is helpful to periodically change transaxle ATF:
    Which heatsink for U800 on Tek 2465?

    The hybrid ICs have May 1988 date codes while the cabinet has an April 1988 date, so that provides a clue about the vintage of this particular unit.
     

    Attached Files:

  16. edthefox5

    edthefox5 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 25, 2007
    10,096
    4,805
    0
    Location:
    Clearwater, Florida
    Vehicle:
    2007 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Yes that's the chip. Really common. We have a stack of them at work with blown U800's.
    That sink looks good Pat. Don't forget the grease. You just saved its life!
    Good Luck.

    BTW, ,.my ham buddy has been on a real tear lately buying up all the all
    broken HP Freq counters he can find on eBay. There's alot of them lately with error 5 which appears if you enter the wrong front panel inputs. People think the counter is broken and sell them. Also he found a source to replace a front end component that's commonly damaged on these units that's also nla.
    There the same vintage as your func gen you have. Excellent vintage for that gear. Very expensive gear going for peanuts. Just need a little lovin'.
     
  17. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,855
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Not a fan of the tek scopes at all. I love my Agilents though :) I also have a couple of Rigol scopes that work great. They have the same trigger circuitry as Agilents, and for $400 quite a steal. 2 channel, 100MHz, and pretty high memory depth.
     
  18. qbee42

    qbee42 My other car is a boat

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2006
    18,058
    3,074
    7
    Location:
    Northern Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Which ones do you like? I'm in the market for a new used scope.

    Tom
     
  19. 2k1Toaster

    2k1Toaster Brand New Prius Batteries

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2010
    6,035
    3,855
    0
    Location:
    Rocky Mountains
    Vehicle:
    2006 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    It depends greatly on what you want to spend and what hole you are trying to fill. Do you just need an auxiliary scope for low duty-cycle usage but every now and then you need more channels? Or are you replacing your current scope with one you plan on keeping until it dies?

    [Images below are shamefully stolen from across the googly-webs]

    I have an Agilent 54624A which I use all the time. I pretty much learned on this scope, so I am very familiar with it. The memory depth is awesome, even if it is only 100MHz. Downsides are that it is a monochrome screen, so all the traces look the same. I don't find it a big deal, but some people really like the coloured waveforms. The other slightly annoying thing is that when scrolling the trigger time mark, it moves in relation to what time base you are currently zoomed to. So if you are at 50ns/div and you turn the wheel it moves around the 50ns divs great. Zoom out to 500ms/div and it zooms around those great. Leave it pre-triggered at 250ms before 0, and zoom in to 50ns/div again and your turning the wheel only changes the 250ms offset by nanoseconds every turn... So you have to zoom out, scroll in your trigger, then zoom back in. Other than that, works perfectly. Minor gripes, but the only ones I have. And I love the signature floppy-boot sound every time you turn it on. :)

    [​IMG]

    I also have a MSO7034 which is a beast. I love this thing. First off, they got the dimensions perfect! Its only about 6 inches deep and it has a 10 or 12 in colour screen (not touch though). That means on your standard table, desk, laboratory bench, whatever, it will fit nestled at the back, and your project infront. With the standard scope shape, you need to offset your work. So the scope is off to the side, angled with your project off to the other side and you inbetween. But this thing is genius. Of course all the waveforms are a different colour. It also has built in decoding of SPI/I2C/USB/RS232/NTSC and everything else. I have never seen it miss a trigger just like my other agilents and other agilents I have used. I have seen corner cases that fool a Tek though, so until I see an Agilent skip a beat, I trust them much more than a Tek. When I setup an experiment to single trigger over the weekend on error I want to be darn sure that it will trigger on error, on not miss it. Anyways, my version is 350MHz and the memory is just unbelievable. You can have it zoomed out to 2ms/div shoot it 1MHz I2C traffic then zoom in to see the actual curved waveforms at 200ns/div or less. It boggles the mind. If you can afford it, BUY it.

    [​IMG]

    If you just want cheap thrills and a backup or aux scope, I highly recommend the Rigol line. I am not sure if you know or if they really want it out there, but the Rigol circuitry is Agilent circuitry. Basically Agilent in their infinite wisdom decided to make a competing scope for the low end market. Something under $2K new, which for Agilent is crazy talk. So they contracted out to a chinese company to get the cheapest they could. But if they are having the Agilent name on it, it better work like an Agilent. So basically they gave Rigol their top secret mojo triggering and memory buffering circuitry. The entire soul of what makes an Agilent an Agilent... Rigol comes back and gives them a scope. Agilent then takes this 100MHz scope with 8MB of memory depth and software limits it to 50MHz with 512KB of memory depth. They have other models in the 50MHz and 100MHz range that range from 512KB to 8MB, but the price just goes up and up for each one. The hardware is exactly the same, but they just limit how you can use it. So Rigol decides to get in on the action and abandons Agilent. They sell the hardware Agilent contracted them to make with their own firmware but sell it at the full 100MHz with 8MB depth for $300USD. Whaaaaa?!?!? They have since increased the price to around $400 or $450. But really, you can't go wrong. The interface is not snappy or intuitive or even look good like an Agilent. But it performs exactly the same because it is. They even have MSO's for like $800 or so.

    I have 1 Rigol and have talked 2 other friends into getting them. They don't have any fancy decode and really are no better than my old 54624A except that they have USB storage instead of floppy which really comes in useful. However, a used 54624A costs many times more than a new Rigol and they are pretty much the same. I prefer my oldschool Agilent's interface, but it works for all scenarios a 100MHz scope would.
     
    1 person likes this.
  20. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    18,200
    6,472
    0
    Location:
    Green Valley, AZ
    Vehicle:
    2015 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Here's another Q for the oscilloscope experts:

    Pls see the first photo of my post #49, showing the Tek 2467 display. The top trace is the sync and the bottom is the signal produced by the HP 3325A function generator set to produce a 10 MHz square wave. The scope sweep is set to 20 nanoseconds per division. Compare that photo to the two photos attached to this msg, which shows the HP 1725A under the same measurement conditions. (The second photo shows the square wave Ch B signal only, set to a lower volts/division to magnify the pulse.)

    My question is why the HP has a little ripple on the top of the first square wave pulse, not seen in the second square wave pulse? That goes away when I set the vertical amp bandwidth switch to 20 MHz but of course the square wave then looks more like a sine wave.

    Is this a problem in the vertical amp or the horizontal sweep?

    I realize that the vertical amp has frequency adjustments, but wouldn't that change the appearance of all pulses?
     

    Attached Files: