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Is the pip the only prius with lithium?

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by windstrings, Dec 4, 2012.

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  1. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    Ford is doing some good stuff, but I trust chevy more than Ford, that's not a vote of confidence!

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #21 windstrings, Dec 5, 2012
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    you're incorrect on litium as far as toyota is concerned. pip only charges to 85% and discharges to 25% or something there about.
     
    #22 bisco, Dec 5, 2012
  3. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    I agree, I may veto her decision but we can't get the pip yet without an out if state trip.... Other car still running fine... So do I wait, or take a trip.?... Hummmmm
    The main aspect I like about the pip us the better battery pack that affords better gas mileage even without pip... Plugin is just a bonus!

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #23 windstrings, Dec 5, 2012
  4. lensovet

    lensovet former BP Brigade 207

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    Not only that, but there are low-discharge NiMH batteries as well.
     
    #24 lensovet, Dec 5, 2012
  5. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    The low discharge NiMh Do it at the expense of 20 percent less capacity.

    But yes I'm aware there is not a total charge put on the lithium but pretty close, and the discharge doesn't have to stop at "is it 40 percent?" as on the NiMh... "just going by memory"
    Its a pretty narrow actual usable range we get with the NiMh... One reason they last so long.

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #25 windstrings, Dec 5, 2012
  6. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    I guess one problem is batteries are evolving so fast its hard to compare apples with apples.

    Roadster Technology - Battery | Tesla MotorsHere is a density chart that shows how they aren't created equal.

    They claim the NiMh is twice the weight for the same in lithium... But they are comparing very high density lithium.

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #26 windstrings, Dec 5, 2012
  7. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Yup, NiMh is 40% (40-80%). Lithium is 60% (25-85%). That's how Toyota uses them.
     
    #27 usbseawolf2000, Dec 5, 2012
  8. lensovet

    lensovet former BP Brigade 207

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    Hm, I thought the range of charge in Toyota's batteries was identical between the two chemistries, but I guess that's not true. But still, the so-called "memory" effect is a widely-misunderstood myth about NiMH.
    Btw, the RAV4 EV also only uses a limited range by default. It has an "extended range" mode which allows you to use a bigger portion of the pack, but you are discouraged from using it on a regular basis and warned that you will shorten the battery's life as a result.
    Another point re:HIDs: Toyota didn't replace them with halogens in the gen 3, they replaced them with LED units. Guess we'll know how reliable those are in a few years.
     
    #28 lensovet, Dec 5, 2012
  9. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Right. High power to high power, the difference is less. Charging and monitoring method for Lithium is more complicated so the packing isn't as good as NiMh.

    Look at Sonata hybrid with Lithium HV battery. Compare it to Camry HSD with NiMH HV battery. Sonata hybrid robs more trunk space than Camry HSD. The weight difference between non-hybrid and hybrid model is also higher for Sonata.

    The 1 kWh lithium battery in Prius Alpha doesn't weight half as 1.31 kWh NiMh in Prius v.
     
    #29 usbseawolf2000, Dec 5, 2012
    lensovet likes this.
  10. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    That would be a nice option... Looks like a firmware flash could to the trick.

    Not to get distracted but..
    Leds are only available as an option on the most premium package.
    I have leather. Full nav etc on my gen3 2010 and it's 4 halogens.. Two for low beam, two for high... They blow away HId...
    2010 Prius Option Packages at NAIAS | PriusChat

    Platinum Package Includes Gold Package, Deletes the Tilt/Slide Moonroof; Solar Powered Ventilation System with Remote Air Conditioning System and Adds:
    17 Inch Alloy Wheels LED Headlights Fog Lamps Intelligent Park Assist Dynamic Radar Cruise Control with Pre-Collision System Lane Keep Assist

    They may be standard now I haven't checked, but when gen 3 first came out and hid was on all the gen 2s. This was the options.

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #30 windstrings, Dec 5, 2012
  11. lensovet

    lensovet former BP Brigade 207

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    the gen 2 came with halogens standard and HIDs on some of the packages
    the gen 3 comes with halogens standard and LEDs on the Advanced PiP and the Five+AT package
    those are the only choices
     
    #31 lensovet, Dec 5, 2012
  12. lensovet

    lensovet former BP Brigade 207

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    the gen 1 also came with halogens standard. each generation's lights blow the previous gen's out of the water. this shouldn't be that surprising…
     
    #32 lensovet, Dec 5, 2012
  13. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    Gen2 headlights are reflectors but gen3 have projectors (both halogen and LED).
     
    #33 usbseawolf2000, Dec 5, 2012
  14. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    That may an option, but my low beams are Halogen bulbs behind lenses, my high beams are Halogen inside reflectors.
    Interesting. Halogen -VS- LED Headlights with pictures | PriusChat

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #34 windstrings, Dec 5, 2012
  15. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    Anyway, to get back on track, Toyota is not likely to try too much new stuff unless they come up with it themselves.

    It's good to see they are talking with other people about battery solutions since their present sources seem to be dragging their feet and holding out on keeping the prices high.
    Maybe they must think toyota needs them too much?
    I'm assuming toyota is not manufacturing their own batteries?
    Maybe I'm wrong?

    I expected quicker advances in the technology from toyota.

    The question has been posed several times "what real competition for they have?"
    Well they do. There are starting to be lots of alternatives out there.
    Toyota has not improved the gen 3 for 3 years now except with the introduction of the pip.... Problem is, others are catching up.

    So much so that many avid prius owners are considering elsewhere now....right on the brinknof jumping.... Common toyota!



    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #35 windstrings, Dec 6, 2012
  16. lensovet

    lensovet former BP Brigade 207

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    #36 lensovet, Dec 6, 2012
  17. windstrings

    windstrings Certified Prius Breeder

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    Good to know, thanks... Maybe they will also start making lithium!

    Wow your up early, Or are you like me and just haven't gotten to sleep yet?

    Alan... The second mouse gets the cheese!
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    #37 windstrings, Dec 6, 2012
  18. GasperG

    GasperG Senior Member

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    This is not the battery chemistry thing, you can always have high energy density and low weight but this will always mean that you can draw low power (eg. 1 C). High power from the battery (10 x Capacity) demands high battery weight, but if you already have high density and big capacity (eg. 30 kWh) it means that 1C draw (30 kW) may be enough.

    Prius+ uses only 1 kWh Li-ion battery and can output the same power as 1,4 NiMh pack, li-ion pack is 8 kg lighter.

    I think the main problem with li-ion chemistry is heat, thermal management is more complex than NiMh. The price of NiMh is not that cheaper (if at all), because of rare earth materials used.

    And here is something for the future from Toyota:
    Toyota Prototypes All-solid-state Battery With 5x Higher Output Density -- Tech-On!
     
    #38 GasperG, Dec 6, 2012
  19. lensovet

    lensovet former BP Brigade 207

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    Just heading to bed now lol
     
    #39 lensovet, Dec 6, 2012
  20. usbseawolf2000

    usbseawolf2000 HSD PhD

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    #40 usbseawolf2000, Dec 6, 2012
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