Chevrolet Volt tops Sierra Club ranking of plug-in hybrids

Of course I charged the Volt first. What is your point ?

 

Fair enough.

I wonder why PiP sales seem kinda low. Haven't followed things.

 

Volt next-gen news in Motor Trend. Main take away was GM intent to get cost down by $7-10k to drive volume.

 

They will likely drop the big bonus cash and dealer incentives ($4000-$8600) as well which will allow them to lose less on each sale yet retain volume.

 

I've heard speculation that it might seat 5 with the same EV range. A 4 seater might also be offered with a 50 mile EV range.

If they manage $7000 off, that will get into the PPI price range.

Wasn't the PPI supposed to go national in June?

 

Avoiding the same OPUD trap (again) doesn't seem to be a strong point.

Originally, yes. Toyota responded to the market fallout (other plug-ins) by choosing to focus on existing availability location instead, delaying full rollout until the next model year.

 

TTAC review on PiP makes some interesting claims about his commute with Volt: 20 miles EV range, 30 mpg thereafter and 40 combined on his 53 mile one-way commute. after 12:45 -

Review: 2012 Toyota Prius Plug-In Hybrid | The Truth About Cars

 

A quick check of 1st generation inventory makes that a strong possibility...

The end of May, unsold new inventory available was about 9,100. As of this moment, it's shown to be 8,245. Based on those numbers, it looks like even just matching May's sales of 1,600 will be a problem. Despite the $4,000 price-drop, sales didn't increase. In fact, they did the opposite.

GM's decision to build what they wanted to sell rather than what was needed is clearly backfiring. Sure, the system itself is winning awards, but what the heck is the point of that? GM consumers are still buying their traditional vehicles instead. Mission not accomplished.

GM has a long-running "over promise, under deliver" reputation. How do they avoid falling into that same trap again? With so much pressure to overcome the shortcomings of this generation, telling people they will and false hope leading to unsupported hype like it did last time is very easy.

Being realistic about expectations doesn't attract headlines. Dealing with lots of unsold inventory makes a bad situation even worse. What's going to happen?

 

Umm John. I see many more Prius owners selling off their cars for Volts. I have yet to see it go the other way.

 

You must be a fool to think I don't understand.

I think we both agree that it was badly written. The two sentences I quoted sums it up. There was a lack of understanding for MPGe.

You and I can comprehend better with prior knowledge and discussions but for you to say it is 101 as a normal Joe should be able to, is totally incorrect.

It appears you are referring to PiP. Let me correct you. 95 MPGe rating is from a blend of gas and electricity. To be specific, 18.9% gas and 81.1% electric. If Volt is driven with the same fuel ratio, it would be rated 74 MPGe.

95 MPGe > 74 MPGe

You need the efficiency of both electric miles (EV) and gas miles (HV). The ratio of each fuel matters only if one is bias toward one of the fuel.

The fuel usage ratio depends on driving speed, range and charging pattern. The owner will pick the most suitable plugin that best match his/her commute range. Range comes with trade-off due to the limitation of Lithium battery. Generally, the more EV range, the less efficient, lower interior space and longer charge time. The cost increases too but the tax credit lessen the blow.

For my PiP, I am averaging 132 MPGe on electric miles and 54 MPG on gas. Leaf's City cycle efficiency on electric and Prius gas efficiency on highway. This is typical for a lot of PiP owners, so I am not the exception. The best of both worlds.

 

Find me one Model S owner selling it to get a Volt.

Electric mile attracts some. Total efficiency attracts others. Practicality, affordability or the total package (regular Prius) is what most goes for.

 

Conquest sales don't address the reality that GM customers are not stepping up to Volt. They replace their GM traditional car with another GM traditional car.

 

Hey if you want to play the fool, go ahead. I figure I would give you the benefit of the doubt. I don't think its misleading at all, you simply are trying to be too clever and misinterpret it. There I have said it. Use your brain, and don't think the public is so stupid as you perceive.

I was giving you something better than the epa claims for the prius phv, and inflation of efficiency if you prefer. If the volt is driven 29 miles from a full charge why would it use any gas? Aren't you trying to handicap it here to do as poorly as the prius does, because it must use gas at higher speeds. This is not an engineering problem for cars with higher battery power. I expect that toyota will fix this in the next version. You have to imagine a trip both cars are on, not pretend they have the same limitations. I am sure you would claim a 500 mile trip to hit the volts limitation. If you do many of these, say twice a week you will do better in a prius phv, but again this is what, less than a percent of the population that will not buy a plug in anyway. YMMV.

Sure but you did the math wrong.

Yes and this is the bias of the sierra club and myself. It is even the bias of the DOE. We would rather import less oil.

I don't think the 208 mile range of the tesla S kills the efficiency, its the same as the prius phv. There are other factors. This is a problem if you are trying to sell low range cars, you will use gas.

Well good for you, but you didn't give us a total. What percent of your miles are gas? Would you use less oil if you had a longer AER?

 

Astingreen, Model S 60 kWh is rated 95 MPGe. 85 kWh model is rated 89 MPGe.

Using EPA is fine to compare but the MPGe it rated is for one driving range and assumes one charge per day. Everybody has different driving range and charging pattern. Plugin's MPGe swings widely depending on those variables.

This is why we should look at the bottom line. I.e: efficiency of both fuels broken down by the miles they were driven with. Pretty simple concept. It is not about bloating numbers.

My lifetime fuel ratio is 47% electric and 53% gas. The last 6 months is 51% electric and 49% gas. How about yours?

Using less oil is one of the goal. Not increasing refueling time is another. Not giving up 50 MPG on regular gas is another. Not giving up a flat cargo floor or a rear seat is another. There are many others and I am not all electric range (AER) love blind.

BTW, why is my math wrong?

 

F8L, also just noticed you got your Volt. Hope you like it. I see lots of them in the Metro Detroit area, but it is GM HQ.

 

That won't happen because the Model S has the range AND it is nice to drive.

I specifically said Prii owners. They seem to be the ones trading in for Volts.

 

That guy and the other Volt reviewer at TTAC that he refers to are credibility-challenged and are spreading BS. TTAC is strongly biased against GM and the Volt.

See this earlier thread where I point out the implausibility of those claims:

Prius vs Volt: 55 miles & 3,000' Elevation 4 days a week: | PriusChat

 

Huh?

Congratulations on your new experiment but you might consider updating your profile. At least now some things make a lot of sense, a familiar pattern.

Plug-in Prius owners? Do you have some numbers?

The reason I ask is we know Ford's improved hybrids also had some 'conquest' sales of Prius owners. But that only makes sense when one looks at the specs of the Ford hybrids which are more Camry hybrid class. A comfortable, American style ride, the expanded market is going to appeal to Prius owners who value creature comforts and vehicle acceleration and driving experience over mileage.

Three years ago, there were only a couple of fuel efficient cars. The Prius came in any style you wanted as long as it was a hatchback or the 2001-03 compact. The fuel efficient market has expanded so it only makes sense that those who used to have no options to choose something else. Based upon these sales numbers, I'm not ready to run-around, set my hair on fire, and jump off a building:

	Column 1
0	[tr][th]model[th]May_13[th]Apr_13[th]Mar_13[th]Feb_13
1	[tr][td2]Toyota Prius Liftback[td2]15330[td2]12432[td2]13868[td2]11428
2	[tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
3	[tr][td2]Toyota Camry Hybrid[td2]4265[td2]3257[td2]4461[td2]4147
4	[tr][td2]Toyota Prius C[td2]3782[td2]3486[td2]4026[td2]3148
5	[tr][td2]Jetta Diesel[td2]3752[td2]3158[td2]3653[td2]3261
6	[tr][td2]Toyota Prius V[td2]3732[td2]3372[td2]3460[td2]2543
7	[tr][td2]Fusion Hybrid[td2]3335[td2]3625[td2]3417[td2]3806
8	[tr][td2]Ford C-Max Hybrid[td2]3261[td2]3197[td2]3275[td2]2849
9	[tr][td2]Passat Diesel[td2]2797[td2]2797[td2]3237[td2]2233
10	[tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
11	[tr][td2]Nissan Leaf[td2]2138[td2]1937[td2]2236[td2]653
12	[tr][td2]Tesla Model S*[td2]2000[td2]2100[td2]1950[td2]1400
13	[tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
14	[tr][td2]Sonata[td2]1817[td2]1447[td2]1623[td2]1441
15	[tr][td2]Malibu Hybrid[td2]1695[td2]1551[td2]1359[td2]1254
16	[tr][td2]Lexus CT200h[td2]1623[td2]1171[td2]1062[td2]1182
17	[tr][td2]Chevrolet Volt[td2]1607[td2]1306[td2]1478[td2]1626
18	[tr][td2]Avalon Hybrid[td2]1514[td2]1423[td2]1616[td2]1361
19	[tr][td2]ES Hybrid[td2]1434[td2]1237[td2]1561[td2]1154
20	[tr][td2]Kia Optima Hybrid[td2]1206[td2]1000[td2]1001[td2]1215
21	[tr][td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-[td2]-
22	[tr][td2]RX 400 / 450 h[td2]885[td2]688[td2]925[td2]756
23	[tr][td2]MKZ[td2]715[td2]884[td2]446[td2]177
24	[tr][td2]Prius Plug In[td2]678[td2]599[td2]786[td2]693

source: hybridcars.com dashboard report

Now if the Volt is leading to "Prius Plug In" trade-ins that would be news. I would be interested in the source of that metric.

Given the Prius has been sold since 2001-current, I would be surprised if a few Prius owners didn't buy a non-Prius, fuel efficient car . . . including the Volt. They also buy Fords, Hondas, and other fuel efficient cars that did not exist when the Prius was first bought.

GOOD LUCK!
Bob Wilson

 

The point is: Prius has consumed exclusively gasoline.
You had to put energy in Volt that has been lost later on in ineffiencies of its ICE.

 

Bob,

The ones I have heard from or read about were GenII and GenIII owners. I don't know of any PIP owners crazy enough to trade so early besides myself. Now had I rented a Volt and PIP to test on my commute I would have chosen the Volt first. Sometimes I need to listen to my own advice.