Keeping the car in full electric mode

Perhaps. Perhaps not. There are still people that think that you'll be stranded after 38 miles.

 

Wow, that sounds dangerous. There are times when you might need the acceleration at speeds under 55 mph to avoid a bad situation.

Those were the days.... I got a speeding ticket in my girl friends Porsche going 60 mph on a freeway on a sunny early Sunday morning when the only two cars on the road were me and the cop.

 

Long distance trip aside, I don't know if that assumption can be made...
EPA ratings for the leaf are higher. (The engine running does drag the pip's numbers down some). If you're going to use the pip without the engine running, then it'd be best to compare to the leaf under the same demand/conditions... No sense in comparing the leaf when it's less efficient to the pip when it's more efficient.
Also, I'd say it's reasonable to expect that you'd get better than EPA ratings in a leaf if you got better than EPA ratings in a prius.

Winter might be a bigger variable, though I'm not sure how big of a factor it would be for short trips (It takes a while to heat up the cabin... I for one might not bother). If you mostly use the seat heaters, the difference might even be moot.

 

Or in California where the battery warranty is 150,000 miles.

 

Depends on when and where. I've found the opposite to be true. In the Los Angeles area it's not uncommon to hit 80% or more of the red lights, which means you're basically accelerating the whole way to your destination. On the other hand, the highway is usually slow-going but steady ... perfect for EV.

 

If I have both Leaf and regular Prius and alternate between them, then yes. However, I have a combination of city and highway driving in the same trip. It wouldn't make sense to come back home and swap car.

The point I was making was, if I have to pick between and regular Prius to cover all my year-round miles. Leaf will have to drive in high speed long distance. Regular Prius will have to put up with short trips.

In that case, Leaf won't be able to average 132 MPGe nor Prius with 56 MPG.

There is synergy created with the ability to pick the most suitable (on-board) fuel depending on the driving conditions. PiP duel fuel powertrains have division of labor to boost each other's efficiency where it is not possible with only one.

Refusing to allow division of labor will defeat the purpose of PiP.

 

Exactly.
I didn't really comprehend this until I test drove (then bought) a Volt.
Beyond the battery capability, it's the fact that the electric motor provides full power with no need for the ICE.
I've burned about 20 gallons of gas in my first 7,500 miles of use.

Very happy with the Volt.

 

Driving under pure electric power with no 'shifting' involved has a definite appeal.
That is an aspect of plugins that can get past the 3-4% hurdle.

 

That appeal is the same as pure EV. The cost to achieve it is in question. Incentive helps but interior room and the hit in overall efficiency depends. There is also a small percentage of those that have access to renewable and the cost of electricity swing widely.

 

Use whatever better fit for you. That's the benefit of having the flexibility.

If I remember, you probably have the worse case commute for PiP. Energi maybe better for you. But then I don't know your needs for cargo space and other weekend driving miles (non-daily commute).

Talk about flexibility.... I no longer have the ability to charge my PiP due to transition with my new home purchase. I am averaging 54 MPG so far into 500+ miles. They are mostly 12 miles trip. I no longer have 2 miles short trips (will be back at the new house) so it is not comparable to my 1st year average.

My point is since PiP is efficient with both fuels, it can't go wrong no matter how your life style change. Fuel ratio may change but efficiency continues to impress.

 

So your numbers are effectively as if you had switched cars en route, and mention the values for both cars separately?
Sure, the leaf might not be able to get 132 MPGe at freeway speeds. Sounds like you're comparing the pip's numbers at its lower, more efficient speeds to the leaf at either trip average or the less efficient higher speeds. If you split it up similarly though, it'd probably get similar or better MPGe for the lower speeds, and better than 56 MPGe at the higher speeds, for a combined MPGe that'd still be better than the combined MPGe in the pip.

Now that's talking just efficiency, there are other reasons and limitations to consider a given car beyond that.

 

I'd be willing to bet the PiP does slightly better in EV.

 

See the thread below, that should help. PiP tracks both EV and HV miles along with corresponding kWh and Gallons used. Those 4 fundamental numbers provides fuel economy of both fuels.

I am comparing the EV portion efficiency to Leaf and HV efficiency to gas Prius.

My PiP - After One Year (Stats) | PriusChat

You are right that I am not comparing apple to apple in term of speed and acceleration. However, I am comparing EV miles driven under the DESIGNED parameters for both Leaf and PiP. Clever design is what creates the synergy.

Because PiP operates EV miles at lower speed and warmer temp, it gets higher efficiency.

The same goes for gas miles where PiP gas engine rarely gets used for short trips with warm up penalties.

Alternating between the two propulsion systems and combining both for peak power, is what enabled maximum overall efficiency. Vehicles with a single propulsion system cannot do this. That's why a PHEV that uses one fuel at a time (like Volt) is a dumb idea because one has to shoulder the other - but people that loves EV driving experience prefer it.

MPGe is the efficiency at vehicle level. It does not include fuel production and distribution. Gas is more than twice efficient than electricity (85% vs 33%).

If you take account of everything from the well to the wheel, 50 MPG gas car is more efficient than 100 MPGe electric car. That's why I am so thrilled with PiP raising efficiency of both fuels by cleverly mixing.

 

Is this because of all the conversion losses for electric along the way?

Would this be a moot point is someone had their own solar array?

 

Yup, coal (major source) power plants are very inefficient. Natural gas plants are better, above 40%. Heat generated from those plants will be lost and will not make it into EV cabins but the gas engine waste heat (also from exhaust) gets into PiP cabin. It is beautifully set up.

If you charge your plugin directly from solar panel, you run purely on renewable but panel efficiency is around 15%. I am not sure how EPA calculates it for renewables.

If you tie the panels to the grid, you need to use the grid mix as you won't know one electron from the others at various charging time.

But some view it as RECs and the solar kWh pumped into grid cancelling out the kWh pulled later on, ignoring the real source.

It really depends on how you view it.

 

I think the efficiency issue for your own panels doesn't isn't real meaningful here. So the other 85% goes to heat... as opposed to 100% if you don't have panels. And on the question about panels tied to the grid, the point is that you are using less energy created by "dirtier" means. And to be painfully pedantic, the electrons in a wire really don't move that quickly; they transfer their energy down the wire from one electron to the next, and that energy transfer is what occurs very quickly.

 

I'm not sure what your well to wheel numbers include, or for that matter what your electric numbers include...
Efficiency for finding, drilling, extracting, and refining oil to get gasoline varies just as efficiency for generation for electricity (and anything necessary for that) varies.

As for the source of electricity, yes, if you have grid-tied solar, that's not being used directly, but... even if the source is coal, are you arguing that more coal was burnt because of the car? Are you arguing that the rest of your electric appliances use NG/whatever else, and only the portion that the car used is coming from coal? Are you arguing that if the same amount of solar energy is used fully off-grid (offsetting all of your ongoing usage, and only your usage), that's much better than if the same amount of energy offsets part of yours, and part of other people's usage, for the same amount of offset?

Even off-grid, there's whatever you use for storage, and whatever was used for generation, so it's not as simple as zero emissions, even with solar... Deltas are easier to discuss.

I also have to wonder if your argument would be the same if at a location that doesn't keep the price of gas as low, and where electricity is cheaper... (demand keeps increasing, and oil doesn't form fast enough to make an impact on that end of the supply). or as the energy costs of the extraction of oil increases. (I'm talking strictly for gasoline here, there's other sources of combustible fuel too of course)

Some sources of electricity fall under the same terms too, of course.

Long story short, plenty of rose-colored glasses for any position on the subject.

 

Did You Know?
About 2/3 of the energy used to generate, transmit, and distribute electricity is “lost” at power plants and in power lines.

Electricity in the United States - Energy Explained, Your Guide To Understanding Energy - Energy Information Administration

Below is Toyota's well-to-wheel calculation. Because of the low efficiency in generating electricity, there is a need to balance it out with gas operation. The best combination is to use EV for lower speed (short trips) and HV gas for higher speed (long trips). This strategy reduces charging time, cost and also benefit in lower weight and cabin space intrusion.

 

Not trying to be a jerk or argumentative here (you know you are one of my favorites on here)...just trying to fully understand this all.

But wouldn't your above post disagree with what you said 4 or 5 posts above: "If you take account of everything from the well to the wheel, 50 MPG gas car is more efficient than 100 MPGe electric car".

 

Good question and you are so polite about it too.

1) Let's look at the upstream (fuel production).

For 39% efficient natural gas power plant, it'll need 86.4 kWh of natural gas (2.95 therms) to generate 33.7 kWh (a gallon equivalent).

For 84% efficient gasoline refinery, it'll need 40.1 kWh of petroleum to refine a gallon of gas.

2) Now, to vehicle operation. This is what EPA test measures.

50 MPG Prius efficiency is (33.7 kWh * 0.40) / 50 miles = 270 Wh/mi

For the 85% efficient EV in that graph, (33.7 kWh * 0.85) / 100 miles = 287 Wh/mi

So, 50 MPG Prius uses less energy per mile than the 100 MPGe EV. In order for an EV to equal the 50 MPG Prius, it needs to get 106 MPGe.

50 MPG vs 100 MPGe assumes that gasoline production is twice efficient as electricity. In our example, it is 2.15 times (84% vs 39%).