My PiP - After One Year (Stats)

Hi! Geeky!!!

 

"Hi! Geeky!!! "

ha ha, hope you get spring by July
is that a teddy bear in your pic ?

 

Yes! It was zero degrees this morning, getting just a little bit old!

Yes, He is my co-pilot. Get a few good laughs evey once and a while from other drivers!

 

fortywok,

Yes, my car was never titled so it is considered new. I was told GM wants demo cars sold before 2500 miles.

Another prime reason why I say the PiP is a patched together EV is:

When/if you eventually get up to 60 mph or so, it is spinning MG1 at close to its redline RPM and using power to spin it backwards just to keep the stinker from spinning. (62mph max EV, no?)

With the Volt both MG's are working to move the car forward!

 

You REALLY seems to understand the Volt's strengths and the PiP's weaknesses. I just wonder if you are overlooking the PiP's strengths and the Volt's weaknesses?

 

Why do Volt owners continue to force PiP, a vehicle clearly presented as a PLUG-IN HYBRID, into the category of EV? Notice how no one else does. Notice how they focus on results instead?

As PiP owners, we see the efficiencies from blending electricity & gas for power. We see the MPG above 100 while cruising faster than 62 mph.

 

I have to admit, it comes across as somewhat offensive when a non-PiP owner "joins" the forum to... not talk about PiPs, but rather to launch a broadside against the "stinkers". When I log on to the forum, it's with the hope that I'll read good information about the PiP, a rather lovely little car in my estimation.

 

While you are technically correct on the mph, RPMs, etc. you seem to be totally missing the importance and elegance of the PSD in how it makes the Prius and the plug-in version of the Prius such an efficient machine, whether operating on gas, electric or both.

The GM engineers had a different set of goals and priorities. They made a car that could operate 100% electric for most of the miles of ~50% of commuters. This is great. The PIP does just almost as well at shorter distances (negatives include switching to gas on hard acceleration) but much better at longer distances. Consumers get a choice and different consumers are going to have different priorities.

These are are well know details...no need to rehash them here for the 100th time, I think.

Mike

 

Sorry, I'll stop celebrating our differences.

Did you guys know that both transaxles are made by the same supplier?
I'm pretty sure that is the case.
So we have that in common !

Only,, one is a "Leap in Technology" (Lutz quote),, and the other is from the '90's.

And both cars have 'stinkers'.

Ok, bye bye....

ps, my previous car was a '10 Prius IV w/solar sunroof. TRD rear swaybar, 17" wheels and sticky tires.
Bye, luv ya....

 

In the past, which could be coined the "purity" chapter, there was much propaganda coming from Volt enthusiasts. Their efforts to belittle Prius PHV marks a ugly point in plug-in history. Thankfully, most of that is just a memory now. Attitudes are changing. Priorities are being reassessed. I'm thinking this particular comment is about being poorly informed, simply passing along greenwash material without verifying whether or not it is actually true.

Watching that video of my commute, first at 70 mph, slowing to 55 mph, and then onto suburb roads, it's easy to see the redline statement is quite incorrect. MG1 is rated for a RPM of 10,000. During that drive, the highest RPM we see is under 6,700. It's not even close to reaching maximum.

So what if a little power is used for carrier balance. That's the point of a hybrid. It seeks out efficiency opportunities by taking advantage of the resources it has available. It was designed to operate that way, and does even with the models that don't include a plug.

The misrepresentation of Prius PHV needs to be stopped. It would be great having Volt owners as an ally in the effort to replace traditional vehicles. That support would be mutually beneficial. Sadly, gaining it continues to be a challenge. The "leap" comment clearly confirms we are not there yet.

See the end result of that 16.8 mile commute. Isn't that 128 MPG the point of being able to plug in? That's significantly higher than a Prius without a plug could deliver, especially when the temperature is below freezing like that.

 

Had to dig pretty hard to find this data, but I thought it was pretty interesting.

From Argonne TTRDC - D3 (Downloadable Dynamometer Database)

The 2013 PiP was able to complete the first runs of both the UDDS and Highway Cycle test without starting the ICE, allowing a direct comparison of the electric drive efficiency between the PiP and Volt for these cycles. Results were very similar for both the 2012 PiP and 2012 Volt, so they would seem pretty reproducible.

Vehicle Year Model: UDDS DC Wh/mi : Highway DC Wh/mi
2013 Plug-in Prius : 162.1 Wh/mi : 176.9 Wh/mi
2013 Chevy Volt : 223.7 Wh/mi : 241.1 Wh/mi

Its also interesting to note that they found the L2 charging loses to be about 9.5% on the PiP vs. about 16% on the Volt. From that you can estimate AC efficiency.

Vehicle Year Model: UDDS AC Wh/mi : Highway AC Wh/mi
2013 Plug-in Prius : 177.5 Wh/mi : 193.7 Wh/mi
2013 Chevy Volt : 259.5 Wh/mi : 279.7 Wh/mi

From AC efficiency we can also calculate MPGe for the cycle.

Vehicle Year Model: UDDS MPGe : Highway MPGe
2013 Plug-in Prius : 189 MPGe : 174 MPGe
2013 Chevy Volt : 129 MPGe : 120 MPGe

Not bad for "1990's technology"

Rob

 

Wow, that's an amazing difference in Wh/mi. !!
But keep in mind: Highway MPGe is at less than 62 MPH with the PiP,and how did you get to highway speeds?
It sure wasn't using electricity, unless you have the patience of a saint and hopefully no one else is on the road with you. Around my parts 62 MPH is not a neighborly highway speed...
And MG1 is powering backwards to keep the engine at rest.

I almost question those MPGe numbers. Was gas usage involved in getting the PiP to speed, and then the MPGe testing began?
There's a weight difference, a tire size difference but not much of an aero difference.
How can this big split in MPGe explained? I didn't read all the research yet...

I can probably explain the difference in L2 charging differences. they both use Li-ion, correct? Why the difference?

The Volt has an advanced Thermal Management System (TMS). It heats or cools the battery pack to keep it happy to assure a long life. So while it's plugged in and charging the AC compressor is cycling on once in a while in hot weather.

Do you know what the PiP and the Leaf do in Phoenix in the summer to protect the battery from getting hot?
Nothing.
They blow cabin or outside air through the battery pack while charging. That is NOT TMS.

Supposedly the Leaf in hot climates are seeing battery degradation.

As said earlier, the PiP is a hybrid that plugs in and can do some EV tricks.
Not bad for 90's tech, but tech marches on!!

 

Actually, that wasn't what was said and refined blending is marching forward.

Reaching the masses is the measure of success.

That disconnect between business & engineering is what needs to be overcome.

 

Reminder to self: do not read anymore "Volters" negative comments in the inappropriate thread.

 

Yeah, I guess this is the wrong thread.
There are other threads like this also on PC.

Sorry, once again I'm just celebrating our differences !!

I'll go find that thread that talks about the differences.

Until then, run the numbers,, there is a huge difference, but not much of a price difference!

Reaching the masses? Success? Like MickyD's must make the best burger?

 

Numbers are as measured by Argonne National Laboratory, sources are linked above.

HWFE is the standard EPA highway driving cycle. 72 deg F, full charge, from cold "start".


UDDS is the standard EPA city driving cycle, same conditions.


With a fresh battery, the PiP completed each of these cycles with no gas burned. It was not able to complete the US06 "aggressive" driving cycle without starting the ICE.

Rob

 

Here's the front & back of a card I just created to share info about my experiences with the plug-in model...





Sadly, I didn't catch the fact that kWh/100 miles was rounded. It's actually 27.7. Oh well, at least it gives me something to draw attention to.

NOTE: the image has been corrected

 

Nice job John! Looks great.

 

It seems pretty simple really. MPGe in this case is just a measure of the efficiency with which two machines convert electricity from the wall to power at the wheels. For these driving cycles, in which neither vehicle has to burn any gas, the PiP's "1990s technology" would appear to be more efficient than the Volt's "leap in technology."

It is interesting to note that the same basic behavior holds true for the UDDS cycles repeated at 95F, and at 20F. At 20F both vehicles run the ICE on the first cycle, yielding PiP 39.4 MPGe, Volt 33.5 MPGe. At 95F, neither has to run the ICE and its PiP 132.0 MPGe, Volt 94.6 MPGe.

This is not the case for the "aggressive driving" US06 test, because the PiP has to burn fuel right from the first run while the Volt doesn't. On that cycle its PiP 50.1 MPGe, Volt 80.3 MPGe. As expected, the Volt can be driven harder and longer before the ICE kicks in. However I would say that's indicative of a design choice (larger motor, larger battery) rather than a measure of efficiency.

Rob

 

Fixed math error in most recent post. Had use DC Wh to calculate equivalent gallons instead of AC Wh.

Rob