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Recharging the AC with hydrocarbon refrigerant

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by OCD-Man, Jul 9, 2022.

  1. lech auto air conditionin

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    Yes this is one of those cheap Chinese vacuum pumps are sold in China for $35 on the mass market and then they’re delivered to other countries they Rebox them throw a label on them in charge you 200+ dollars for them they work

    even my $3000 NAVAC 12 CFM vacuum pump rated at 3 µm is made in China.

    for a do it yourself person who’s only going to use it one or two maybe three times in your lifetime to purchase a micron gauge is kind of pushing it but it would be nice to have but the world won’t come to the end without it

    For do it yourself person I would almost tell them not to use a micron gauge because just trying to connect it up right not contaminated with oil putting extra fittings on without experience can cause another vacuum leak in the hook up procedures.

    over the last four decades I’ve probably owned every brand micron gauge that was ever produced from the big names.
    I prefer the Accu tools but that’s way beyond DYI level and the cost even the cheapest one I think is around $200.

    this is why I always tell DYI people to leave their vacuum pump on overnight as long as there’s not a leak you can’t go wrong.
     
    #21 lech auto air conditionin, Jul 13, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2022
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  2. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    Boy that blew up. And America's coming around I now use hydrocarbon blend refrigerants and certain machines and restaurants and convenience stores and what have you can now use it blah blah blah I don't keep up with all the law I don't really have interest in that but we are coming around . AC blends has been available in Europe since they started to phase out our 12 hence why I went to hydrocarbon blends because I was in Europe already where I'm from and was able to get it easily and cheaply it cools as well or better than r12 then make more dense versions in r22 I guess. So it seemed to be a win-win everybody in the United States on all the lists I was on way back in the '80s or screaming about fires and adding pine smell to the gas and all this and that well we tried to set an old Corolla on fire by inducing a gas leak from the refrigerant line under the hood blowing directly on the hot nice person exhaust manifold we couldn't get any we couldn't get even a blow torch effect nothing nothing it was so uneventful we were pretty sad we were hoping we'd at least get a whoosh something. Like we did with gas vapor but that's another story so I got to read about fires from this kind of gas which I guess basically is like propane but we couldn't make one happen All we knew was we had ice cold air for longer than we were going to usually be in the car 3 to 500,000 mi and many of them we never had to touch them again but the buna o rings in. Usually a new receiver dryer not even pulling a vacuum gas and go be having a frosty near 40 on the low side hose. Never look back everything else didn't seem to matter
     
  3. lech auto air conditionin

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    Pure single non-blended R290 has been used in the subzero freezer’s for a few years now going down to -20° below zero. I think that’s cold enough for most people. At least for your ice cream.
     
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  4. OCD-Man

    OCD-Man Junior Member

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    Update:

    I finally got the new condenser installed after a long struggle with removing the old one. The bolt that held it to the lower left radiator bracket was so rusted that the head got stripped, so I had to cut open the frame of the old condenser to get enough room to remove the rusty bolt with pliers and penetrating oil. Took me about a day. This is what 15 years of exposure to road salt does to fasteners.

    The good news is there are no more large leaks in the system and the AC compressor still works. After installing the new condenser (including new o-rings, oil and dye) I pulled a vacuum on the system for 30 minutes and made sure it could hold a vacuum for 45 minutes. I then pulled a vacuum for 22 hours to remove moisture, and charged a can of Enviro-Safe Industrial as a liquid into the vacuum. After that I let the car sit for two days to check for leaks with a combustible gas detector and a UV flashlight. The gas detector did not pick up anything (and I've confirmed that the device actually works), but I could see small amounts of dye around some of the crimp fittings on the rubber hoses and a tiny bit where the suction hose connects to the compressor. Not sure if this is my dye or leftover dye from when it was last charged by an AC shop, or (less likely) spillage from the large leak at the condenser. The system hasn't had any refrigerant in it for two years, and I guess it's impossible for dye to slowly leak out without pressure, so I figure there must have been a slow leak back when it did have refrigerant. I'm not really comfortable with any size leak in combination with flammable refrigerant, although in this case it's probably too small to hold a flame if it were to ignite.

    Anyway, I manned up just enough to start the car with the doors and windows open, put the AC on full blast, and it worked. The manifold gauge needles moved from 57/57 PSI (static pressure, I've learned) to approximately 30 PSI low side and 100 PSI high side at an ambient temperature of 14 C (57 degrees Fahrenheit). Cold air was coming through the vents and I could hear the compressor working - a bit noisy maybe? I then shut the car off, removed the LP and HP quick couplers and, here comes the bad news: As I went to purge the manifold set, I expected a small hiss, but instead I got a large amount of liquid refrigerant, oil, and dye spraying all over the engine bay, windshield, headlights, etc. Greenish yellow goo was bubbling out of the fitting, streaming down the hose. The high pressure gauge was still showing 100 PSI when I cracked open the screw, so perhaps I should have seen it coming. It was a mess. And I can forget about tracing any leaks with the UV dye now because it's now everywhere under the hood.
    However, my main concern now is the oil that was lost. Judging by the amount I picked up with paper towels, and the oily stains everywhere, I think a significant amount was trapped in the high pressure hose. I really need some qualified advice now as to how much oil I should add back into the system.

    IMG_20220730_054314181_HDR.jpg
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    bracket.jpg
    IMG_20220721_235640694(1).jpg
     
  5. lech auto air conditionin

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    Everything was going good until you remove the hose.

    hose removal process

    1: High pressure liquid will be pushed up into the high side hose and will remain there after you unscrew in back out the high side service fitting

    2: with engine and AC still running well in the case of a Prius with AC still running. Open up low side gauge valve on manifold this will allow the low side to suck and remove refrigerant that is in the manifold and your yellow charging hose.

    3: with air-conditioning still running slowly crack open the high side manifold gauge valve this will allow the high-pressure refrigerant under pressure in the red high side hose to be sucked over into the low side into the air conditioning system.

    4: after a few minutes or seconds you will notice your high side and low side will equalize to the low side pressure.

    5: now you could remove the low side say coupling.

    6: your yellow hose should have a seal tight automatic ceiling fitting on it so when you disconnect it from your can it automatically does not lose any refrigerant/ or as an option it has a small shut off valve at the end that you manually turn the valve so when you unscrew the end of the yellow hose off the canned refrigerant does not spray out but inside your gauges you only have roughly 30 psi of vapor refrigerant left inside.

    did you get the Envirosafe that had the extra refrigerant boil in it or did you get the other option that was only refrigerant with no extra lubricant.

    I don’t know too much about it but I know from what I heard from somebody can’t remember where or when that there was an option of getting the cans with lubricant mixed in with the refrigerant or just pure refrigerant with no lubricant

    yes the green UV dye can be a mess I will admit I have done that before myself and I will admit I’ve done it more than one time and it’s really bad when it sprays you in the face and the hair and you go around with the greaser look all day with hair combed back with a slight greenish yellowish tint to your face .

    looks kinda neat in the dark with a black light when you look in the mirror have an alien looking back at yourself
     
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  6. OCD-Man

    OCD-Man Junior Member

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    Thank you for the feedback. I'm not sure how this would work on my gauge set. It's this one:

    EDIT: It appears I'm not allowed to post links, so I'll just attach a picture of the gauge set instead.[​IMG]

    It does have a push valve right above the fitting where you screw on the yellow charging hose, but it's my understanding that this valve is only for bleeding air out of the charging hose so you don't push a pocket of air into the system together with the refrigerant. When I was done charging the Enviro-Safe and tried to disconnect the charging hose from the can tap, a considerable amount of liquid refrigerant sprayed out, so not sure there's an automatic shut-off valve, or maybe I did something wrong.

    Any thoughts on the oil? I'm assuming some of the goo that sprayed out was compressor oil. As you can see from the first picture, the air filter box, coolant hoses, etc. are coated with an oily residue, and the stains you see on the plastic trim and windshield wipers is the same stuff. Should I add maybe 5-10 ml of POE oil?
    EDIT #2: To be clear, this mishap with the hose removal was days after I had charged the AC with refrigerant. It happened right after I had hooked up the gauges to check the pressures with the car running. I did not put in any refrigerant with the compressor on. The only oil I've added is the 45 ml I poured into the condenser inlet.

    The Enviro-Safe I used is the "Industrial" version without dye or any other additives. This stuff must be charged as a liquid. I believe that's because it's a blend of hydrocarbon gasses (propane and isobutane) with different volatility - so charging it as a vapour would give you the wrong mix if you don't use the entire can. I tried to charge it by weight holding the can upside down on a kitchen scale, but that proved almost impossible, so I gave that up and just winged it. The can had 226 grams of propane/isobutane which supposedly equals 598 grams of R134A. I disconnected the can when it was nearly empty and vented whatever was left in the hoses into the atmosphere.
     
    #26 OCD-Man, Jul 31, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2022
  7. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    It might be easier to do it in the steps the guy above provided or you can try a new set of gauges with all the silly fittings and whatnot The EnviroSafe is not really that bad for the environment maybe hence its name. I've been using that stuff since the very early '90s for a while I couldn't even get it in the late '90s early 2000s because the company changed name or did whatever I have cases of the stuff in my shop mine does not have the extra oil in it mine is the earlier original which you add the dye to the system if you want it it wasn't in the AC blends yet. So basically it sounds like you dumped what was left in the manifold set in the hoses people do that all the time but your car still has what you got in it in it and it still making cold so now you just super clean 50-50 mix off of the engine and engine bay which if I was living in an area with rust which I used to live in Western Massachusetts. I would almost super clean my car off once a week My 74 SR5 which is a Toyota car Corolla never had any rust on fasteners it was eating up the rocker panels in the strut towers but that's neither here nor there seems like you pretty much got it
     
  8. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    Yes, that procedure will work with your gauge set. Opening both valves on the manifold will "connect" all the hoses together, and allow the compressor to suck in most of the he refrigirantv

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  9. OCD-Man

    OCD-Man Junior Member

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    Thanks for the advice. I'll give the car a good wash when I'm done with the AC work. I might even clean the engine compartment with a mild degreaser to get rid of the dye stains. Never heard of Super Clean, I doubt it's available here. I usually use a water soluble degreaser called Bilt Hamber Surfex HD. When that doesn't work, I resort to a petroleum based degreaser.
    Apparently the maker of this dye also makes a "dye remover" but it costs $50 for a 1 liter bottle. I might as well pour my money down the drain.

    Yes, rust is a massive problem here in Norway. I've done so many rust repairs on this car. Three years ago I replaced almost the entire front and rear suspension. I even took the crossmember out, sandblasted it and painted it with 2K epoxy primer. When I don't have the time to remove the rust, I use Fluid Film.
    If you look at the second picture I posted, you'll notice that the upper radiator brackets look nice and black. That's not how they looked when I removed the condenser. They were heavily corroded. I cleaned them up, submerged them in citric acid overnight, then painted them with several coats of 2K epoxy primer and one coat of alkyd paint.
     
  10. OCD-Man

    OCD-Man Junior Member

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    Thanks. So if I open the high and low valves, air won't be sucked in through the yellow charging hose?

    EDIT: Just so there are no misunderstandings, I did not have a refrigerant can attached to the charging hose when this happened. I had simply hooked up the gauges to read the pressures, I didn't touch the knobs. In fact I had disconnected the yellow hose and put the red dust cap that came with the manifold set onto the charging fitting.
     
    #30 OCD-Man, Jul 31, 2022
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2022
  11. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    I looked closer at your gauge set in the picture. It's a little different than what I would see in the USA. Yours doesn't appear to have a self-sealing valve on the end of the yellow hose. You would have to cap or plug the yellow hose or its port with a pressure rated (metal) fitting. If you removed the "extra" cap on center port of the manifold, would the free end of the yellow hose screw onto it?

    The idea is that you disconnect the high side service hose, then open both valves on the manifold while the A/C is running. Any pressure and refrigerant in the high side hose will equalize with the compressor low side. You would have around 30psi of gas left in the gauges. (So it can't "suck air in")

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
  12. OCD-Man

    OCD-Man Junior Member

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    I would have to check. I looked at the instructions that came with the manifold and it says to unscrew this cap (they refer to it as a "nut") and press the valve behind it with a screwdriver to bleed air out of the charging hose. I'll see if the other end of the yellow hose connector can be screwed onto it
    Is there another way to transfer most of the high pressure liquid back into the system without messing with the manifold? What if I let it sit for a while with both quick couplers connected to the car (and fully open), would the pressure gradually drop? I have the time to do this if that's an option.
     
  13. OCD-Man

    OCD-Man Junior Member

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    The AC is still working pretty good with the hydrocarbon refrigerant. Thanks to the dye I found another leak at the suction hose to compressor connection which I've now (hopefully) fixed. There was significant buildup inside the fitting, some hard yellow substance that was even underneath the o-ring. I scraped it off and installed a new o-ring.

    Anyway, I have another issue now: There seems to be a problem with the air conditioner ECU. I hooked up my laptop with Techstream (latest version, legit subscription, Tactrix OpenPort cable), and every system is responding except "Air conditioner." It tries to connect for a while and then gives me the error "the selected system is not responding." I've tried maybe 15 times. I did get a semi-successful connection one time, but it only displayed the compressor target speed before communication was lost. The common solar sensor DLC (B1421?) is present, but I assume that's because I'm doing the test inside the garage. Anyone familiar with this issue?