Featured Hyundai IONIQ - Prius competitor?

Is the high failure rate in their hybrid? The weak point of the DCT is starting from stop which is usually rough and jerky when mated to an ICE. In Honda's i-DCD 1-motor system, the smooth, high-torque electric motor handles low-speed duty and starts from stop. Once underway, the engine starts and the DCT is now in it's element where quick shifting can be used to best advantage.

 

Said before, I appreciate all this discussion. Terrific. Please continue.

Now, what do we know about the Ioniq's EV? I haven't seen much. Any parallels that can be drawn from other EV's?
Personally, I am not interested in owning the hybrid, but I might consider leasing an EV for an in-town vehicle. I for one would be interested in any discussion.

 

I believe this and smart alternators can declutch the pulley.

It might be they meany V as in 5.

VW isn't the only one using a DCT. You might not have heard of the others because they don't have issues.

I take there price talk is for NA. We don't know the Ioniq will be imported or built in the EU which will have a big effect on the price.

Look into Soul EV. That is the most we'll have for details now.

 

No, they mean Prius v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon) as in model, look at licence plates.


Prius v (lowercase v for the Prius v wagon) is the bigger prius in most countries, and also in Europe and possibly Asia there are no levels 3,4,5 and so on like in USA but rather different names for packages: Sol, Luna, Executive, etc.

 

I thought they used Alpha or Plus for the v outside North America.

 

THE belt!
I suppose Hyundai has forgot to reveal the belt efficiency as superior to Prius ICE ones.

 

The sonata had a belt and 10.5 kw motor. This is a parasytic load, but at 65 mph a smaller one than the camry's mg1. We have no idea if the ioniq has the same system here. If it does its hardly a feature but a way to get around honda's patents. I'd wait to find out technical details before jumping to conclusions here.

Gen III prius cut out all parasitic loads except the ones required for the psd. This meant electronic oil and water pumps on top of the already electronic air conditioning. Since alternator paracitic load is part of the engine efficiency, if it is a belt, and hyundai gets 40% efficiency then .... the engine itself must be as efficient as the prius at the peak even with this load. We need to wait for bsfc charts to find out.

Typical in these small I4 engines is 35% but in non hybrid configuration the sweet spot is often missed. The most efficient range is normally high load low rpm. Without bsfc charts we can't really tell which system is more efficient at what mode. Going from 35% to 40% is fairly huge 14% efficiency gain.

 

I see a lot of going around the facts from the side of the Hyundai with all the propaganda so far.
The only way for this car to work is to either be vastly superior to Prius or vastly underpriced.
First option seems less probable with each new info

 

Not sure if that's the case with the divisive looks of the new Prius. IF the Hyundai matched the Prius on tech specs and price there would be some people buying it for the more conventional design. That's a big "if" of course, Hyundai will need to beat the Prius in some aspects to give their marketing department a chance. IMHO Hyundai will be slightly better than the Prius in price and try to run with it. With the now very different looks of the two vehicles they could have some success.

 

Neither toyota or hyundai have turned their new engines to labs to be tested so we only have each of their words for the efficiency. IMHO EPA tests are more important even though they are not real world, they are closer than individual numbers We will have to wait for those for the Hyundai.

Both the prius and ioniq are hybrids with atkinson engines that can use late valve closing to reduce throttling losses. The inoniq and prius also have transmissions that allow a lot of flexiblity when it comes to rpm. The ioniq has di and a smaller displacement so it is probably able to lug along more efficiently at low rpm and late valve closing The prius has very agressive cooled egr, so it should be able to be more efficient at lower loads and higher rpm, but the question is where the transmission puts them.

Where the ioniq is likely less efficient is acceleartion espetially high power accelaeration from under 5 mph until efficient mode is found in 2nd gear. At low power accelaeration its likely both may use their battery/mg to do it in the most efficient way. The strenth of the hyundai system is cruise control and accleration at higher speeds, where it should be more efficient.

The ioniq indeed may use its battery more, but the battery has a lot more usable energy and a little more usable power than the one in the prius.

Both cars have atkinson valving the ioniq's enegine is smaller and has di. It likely is more efficient at lower power levels than the prius engine. Why would you think the prius engine would be more efficient here? Again YMMV. The epa test uses slow acceleration, faster acceleration at low speeds would favor the prius system, so real world jack rabitting between stop lights might be better in the prius. If you hypoer mile I would think someone like gerdes would do better in the ioniq. We will have to wait until he drives both.

My guess is they willl beat the gen IV prius in highway mpg and passing acceleration, but lose to it in city mpg, just from the system descriptions. THe prius will likely be more reliable, but the hyundai covered by a longer warranty. Ioniq system sounds like it will cost hyundai more than the prius system costs toyota. Hyundai may price it lower though, cutting profit, or even taking a loss, to get sales and volume up. The focus my guess will be the phev. In each generation the expensive technologies of dct and di should come down in cost. DCT started out just in sports/race cars now you can buy one in a cheap hyundai velocitor..

IMHO the gen IV prius looks are more divisive than gen III, but people willl buy inspite of the looks. I think hyundai's goal is not this car but one generation out, 2022 phev, and may take a loss leader position to establish itself.

 

austingreen - I enjoy your analysis and explanation. You seem completely competent, and knowledgable. You are not prone to making outlandish statements that are easily challenged. I find myself agreeing with you, and that is complemented by the belief that you know of what you speak, I enjoy your comments. Please keep it up.

There is a lot of talent on this thread. I always enjoy bisco's humor and one liners. I think of him as a a "sit-down" comedian. (at his computer).

 

Unless it is meant to compete with the 1.5L Prius c. Then it becomes and interesting horse race.

Bob Wilson

 

Hyundai Veloster with is not even that cheap (note that prices are for europe, and I couldn't even find any info if DCT is included):

Veloster 1.6 MPi (fully equipped) - 132hp - 213.568 HRK = 31400$
Toyota Auris 1.8 HSG (fully equipped) - 136hp - 189.900 HRK = 27500$
Toyota Prius 1.8 HSG (fully equipped) - 136hp - 212.400 HRK = 36100$

It's prices in Croatia, but since we are in the EU prices are about the same (or evel lower) than in some other countries.

Hyundai will really have to cut into profit to make Ioniq work price wise.

 

I expect that croatia is much more expensive than the US. Here with dct its a $20,000 car. The corolla starts around $18,000 which is auround your auris but with a trunk, the hatch is on hiatus in the US. THe base gen IV is $25,100 in the US according to toyota, and you can add options to get it to the 30s.

I doubt the ioniq will sell well in europe, its more targetted to the US and Korea.

 

For the sake of comparison, starting prices (EU):
Corolla - 17,350$
Prius - 30,300$
Prius w/ incentives - 24,100$
i40 - 25,700$
i30 - 15,100$

So if they manage to squeeze it in between i30 and i40 it will be a huge success.
But if the 'leaked' price of Ioniq really will be 19,000$, In Europe It will probably start closer to 25,000$.

 

My guess is this will be a slightly smaller lighter car than the prius, so if they both have the 15" tires the ioniq will need less power. A 1.6L di atkinson should be more efficient at lower power settings like 5 kw than a 1.8L port injected atkinson. I would assume that hyundai will set the gear ratio to be very efficient at 25 mph, 35 mph, 55 mph, 65 mph, with first and second gear set for efficiency and accelearation.

di should allow slightly higher compression. The gen III was 9:1 if the hyundai allows 5% more air in, then it should need about 1.07 x rpm to provide the power of the prius, I'm guestimating that it also has a higher peak power rpm to get its full power. At moderate rpms friction should be close to the same if both got the same type low friction surfaces. Both should be remarkably efficient engines.

Until car and driver or a similar magazine does a comparison we won't know mpg at cruise control and rpm at given speeds. Certainly hyundai could have done a bad job with its gear ratios but I doubt that.

With there brutal lead foot car and driver got 3 more mpg out of a sonata hybrid than a camry hybrid. My guess is this ioniq will need to be hypermiled for best mpg in stop and go driving, but will do well on the open road.

Both cars are a little underpowered with remarkably 40% peak efficiency engines. Both look like they will be aerodynmic with low frontal area. They both should be low rolling resistance on 15" tires, with the gen IV prius eco the lowest here. Both have independant rear suspensions.

Key differences are the gen IV prius looks to have more cargo space.

On paper at least the hsd looks better as does toyota's agressive cooled EGR. Toyota needs to work on that engine note and software for nvh. Then again hyundai's di 1.6L engine and larger more powerfull battery look to be better. I bought my gen III inspite of a poor interior, and as I lived with it it got worse, with squeeks I needed to get rid of and dealers that were in denial (hey you are on your own). I don't think either ioniq or prius IV interiors look good compared to competitors. For exterior beuty is in eye of the beholder, to me the ionoq looks better for others the prius IV.

I expect the existing sentiment for relaibilty an hybrids will have toyota selling a lot more gen IV prius than hyundai sells hybrid ioniqs. The ioniq could easily beat the fusion hybrid, camry hybrid and prius c to number 2 in america though. Ioniq may be a very good base for a phev in the next generation though. I expect learning curve on this first generation. Ford promises a dedicated hsd type hybrid around 2019 to add to competition.

 

I enjoyed and agree with the above assessment. One question:
GasperG wrote the Ioniq's accessories are "belt driven." Do we know that for a fact?
If so, that will be a major disappointment for me. That would mean without the ICE running, there will be no A/C, no power braking and no power steering. Those are all attributes that I have (after owning my G3 Prius) require in a new vehicle. That would be an absolute deal breaker for me, even though I admire the pictures I have seen of the Ioniq.
Someone ... say it ain't so.

 

No a/c should be electronic and the battery soc is bigger, so no ice running for AC.

Occasionally when battery gets low the prius/camry hybrid etc will turn on the engine even when its not needed for propulsion to charge the battery. These hyundais should be no different for hybrid or phev.

What GasperG was mentioning is the Hybrid starter generator (HSG)(starter/alternator) in the sonata hybrid is connected with a belt. This may also be true of the ioniq. We don't know yet. The single large MG may do battery charging. I would not rule out that the ioniq uses this same system as the sonata with a large 35 kw MG clutched between the motor and transmission and a smaller 10 kw HSG belted onto the motor to start the engine and work as an alternator when the engine is unclutched until we get more details. The HSG simply is a parasitic load when it is not starting or generating power. The HSG is similar to what gm used for its eco models which were stop start or mild hybrids depending on your point of view.