1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Prevent EGR troubles?

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Harryjo, Nov 1, 2018.

  1. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,469
    38,103
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    I don't know that they'd appreciate that crud? Or maybe they don't care?

    I was on the case real early with ours, even with just Oxi it went very well. Brake cleaner was not that effective on the cooler.
     
  2. cnc97

    cnc97 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2018
    1,416
    1,525
    38
    Location:
    Evansville, IN
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    I would think a few hours soaking followed by a quick rinse blast would neutralize most of the bad stuff in the crud.

    I wonder how effective Dawn dish soap would be against it, after all, it cleans the oil off wildlife.
     
  3. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2010
    54,469
    38,103
    80
    Location:
    Greater Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Touring
    If I'm not mistaken, car wash run-off goes is either reused or goes into regular sewer system (not storm drains, direct to nearby streams), which is good.

    I liked Oxi alone, because it was easy/convenient (albeit took a little while), 100% effective (albeit only 70K kms in my case), all the waste water goes into regular sewer, and it's not "dramatic".
     
  4. farmecologist

    farmecologist Senior Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2015
    1,945
    1,785
    0
    Location:
    Southern MN
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    II
    Oxi worked great for me as well! Pro tip - invest a buck or two in a rubber stopper to plug one end of the EGR cooler...it works great!

    Example in this post..see pic under "Trying to clean the removed EGR cooler " :
    Hi all, new Prius v owner | Page 3 | PriusChat
     
  5. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    1,105
    1,311
    12
    Location:
    Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    Glad it worked out

    Pixel XL ?
     
    Mendel Leisk likes this.
  6. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    3,096
    2,163
    0
    Location:
    Taylors, SC
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    I bought a used one including the EGR valve off of eBay to use as a spare. I used the rubber stoppers and soaked mine for about 6 weeks, checking and replacing the solvent every week. Every time, except the last time, the water came out tinted. The last time, the solution came out totally clear. That's when I knew the cooler was as clean as a brand new one. Maybe "compulsive and obsessive," but I had plenty of time.

    The EGR valve easily cleaned with an old can of Berryman's automatic choke cleaner. That took less tan 15 minutes.
     
    #86 Georgina Rudkus, Oct 18, 2019
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2019
  7. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2019
    281
    276
    0
    Location:
    Redwood City, California
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Nice. So is your plan to rotate those two EGR coolers at 50k mile intervals or whatever? So you always have a clean one ready to pop in?

    Really clever. I know sometimes being able to continue the job without an interruption, as cleaning would require, would probably make things a lot easier / better.
     
    Georgina Rudkus likes this.
  8. Georgina Rudkus

    Georgina Rudkus Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    3,096
    2,163
    0
    Location:
    Taylors, SC
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Two
    Thanks, as an engineer, I like good planning. $200 less for an equivalent NEW EGR cooler is worth the time and wait.

    Near the end of the car's life or if I decide to sell the car, the perfectly clean as new set will sell for at least what I paid for it.
     
  9. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

    Joined:
    May 29, 2018
    5,834
    3,136
    0
    Location:
    Florida
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    With a lot of scrubbing... :)

     
  10. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    1,105
    1,311
    12
    Location:
    Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    According to the EPA. In 2000 the EPA released the Tier 2 gasoline program to lower the limits of sulfur in gasoline to 160 ppm. In 2017 the EPA released the Tier 3 gasoline program that limits the gasoline down to 10 ppm. Reducing sulfur was found experimentally to reduce particulate matter. I think this is significant to our EGR components since soot (PM) is plugging up these components.

    I'm skimming through the final report released by the EPA titled "Fuel Effects on Exhaust Emissions from On-road Vehicles in MOVES2014: Final Report". In it contains information on and graphs of how much fuel sulfur influences particulate matter. Particulate matter is the soot that plugs up our EGR coolers.

    Burned sulfur is a combination of sulfur in the burned lubricating oil + sulfur in the burned fuel (page 107):
    upload_2020-9-30_13-19-29.png

    Figure 9-2 (page 111) of the report demonstrates a linear relationship between fuel sulfur and PM output.

    upload_2020-9-30_13-10-13.png

    Maybe all fuel that meets the Tier 3 gasoline blend will greatly lessen the EGR depositing in our cars?
     
    #90 mjoo, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
    Merkey likes this.
  11. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2019
    281
    276
    0
    Location:
    Redwood City, California
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Is there any reality in this? (no I did not read the report)
    In that pretty drawing I see a rectangle and a right triangle with nice contrasting colors.
    The caption says "this figure demonstrates ..." o_O

    I know we are saturated with fake news and junk science, and consequently respect for truth and the laws of physics is diminishing rapidly, but Wth? [EDIT - BTW, the autocorrect filter changed W ... T .... F to Wth :D] Nobody cares? This is a government report that people are expected to take seriously???

    Not suggesting anything is wrong, but I bet I could make a figure that demonstrates {anything I want} and it might be equally meaningful.

    And the plot with straight lines looks similarly conconcted. As if they are trying to tell a story rather than present information.
     
  12. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2017
    6,103
    4,032
    1
    Location:
    Wilkes Land
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    Questions a report without reading it? o_O
     
    Merkey and mjoo like this.
  13. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    1,105
    1,311
    12
    Location:
    Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    No that was actually part of a paragraph. The picture I inserted into my post is only a snapshot meant to help people read. The real paper is 100+ pages. I did say I skimmed it

    We're also saturated with armchair charlatans that can't take more than 2 seconds to read a credible source before trolling.
     
    #93 mjoo, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  14. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,068
    14,973
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    How do you tell an armchair charlatan from an actively practicing one?
     
  15. mjoo

    mjoo Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2016
    1,105
    1,311
    12
    Location:
    Michigan
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    III
    The actively practicing one has nicer shoes.
     
    Raytheeagle likes this.
  16. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2019
    281
    276
    0
    Location:
    Redwood City, California
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Not expecting you to read the whole thing of course. Not commenting on your relaying it, or its relevance to the EGR.

    But that was an actual figure from an actual technical report, right?

    So I maintain that is not good. Shameful, even, unless for a middle school science fair. It appears to be (and tell me if I'm wrong - I'd be happy to learn I am) a non-scientfic presentation of something that probably could be presented with actual data if anyone cared to do the work, and if there was a sufficient audience expecting higher standards.
     
  17. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,068
    14,973
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    Even just looking at as much as mjoo posted, I can see there's both a "Figure 9-1" and a "Figure 9-2", and 9-1 does not claim to be anything other than a schematic. Literally the first word of its figure caption is "schematic".

    It's certainly fair for someone about to present an analysis to start with a simple schematic of how the analysis will be organized, and the components and relationships that will be analyzed.

    As for figure 9-2, it is clearly captioned as showing a calculation involving equation 9-1 and the parameters in table 9-1. mjoo didn't post those, but I bet they're in the report. If the equation is linear, it wouldn't be too astonishing for the plots to come out lines.

    There wouldn't be anything wrong with somebody engaging with the report and making an argument that, oh, say, equation 9-1 is incorrectly derived, or the parameters in table 9-1 aren't right. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening in the comments above, which sound a bit more like trying to pose as too smart to actually read or engage with a presentation.
     
    Vman455 and mjoo like this.
  18. 2012 Prius v wagon 3

    2012 Prius v wagon 3 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2019
    281
    276
    0
    Location:
    Redwood City, California
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius v wagon
    Model:
    Three
    Well some people have lower standards I guess. Up to you. I don't think derailing the EGR discussion helps anything. If the authors put as much effort into their documentation as you have put into their defense ...
     
  19. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2008
    23,068
    14,973
    0
    Location:
    Indiana, USA
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    You're seriously going to continue to pose as having higher standards, demonstrated by your facile characterization of 107 pages of "documentation" you're not going to look at?
     
    mjoo likes this.
  20. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

    Joined:
    Aug 22, 2017
    6,103
    4,032
    1
    Location:
    Wilkes Land
    Vehicle:
    2012 Prius
    Model:
    Four
    We got netflix to catch up on, reading is optional here.
     
    Attila Fekete likes this.