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Interpeting OBD "Help"

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Technical Discussion' started by tkc100, Jun 28, 2024 at 5:43 PM.

  1. tkc100

    tkc100 Junior Member

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    I do not know whether to post this as a fuel economy issue or as a technical issue.
    The problem is poor fuel economy, but the solution is technical, at least to me.
    I am working with my 2007 Prius which is getting very poor mileage. This is the 4th Prius I have owned, so I kind of know what to expect as far as mileage. However, this is the first one that I have had the opportunity to work on. The others were lower mileage new cars and all I ever had done to them was to change the oil, filters and tires. Now I am a 71 year old, with more time than money. Actually, I have always enjoyed working on my own cars but this one is a real challenge. It's a computer on four wheels and the learning curve is steep.
    I worked as a mechanic for 15 some years but it was before OBD. All of the numbers and abbreviations have kind of dazed my mind.
    If you would take the time to look at the attached files and give me your input, I would greatly appreciated it. The two files are the same, just in two different formats. The Excel file has the top row frozen so it is a bit easier to work with.
    I also have a concern for the CAT temperature. Way back when. When I was working on cars the CAT would overheat if the fuel mixture going into it was too rich. It's the first time I have ever seen actual temperatures though and have no idea what is normal. I read somewhere that the outlet temperature should be higher than the inlet.
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Do you know much about the condition of the hybrid battery?

    I think I'm seeing pretty normal numbers as far as the data given- the gas engine seems to be running fine.

    That makes me wonder if the hybrid battery is getting weak, and is therefore less available to help out when you push the skinny pedal. The computer normally solves this problem in real time by forcing the gas engine to shoulder more of the load, which means reduced MPG.

    Although sometimes hybrid batteries last longer, 16+ years in a hot climate is a pretty good run.
     
  3. Brian1954

    Brian1954 Active Member

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    ^^^ +1

    Additional questions.
    1. How many miles on the car?
    2. Do you know the past history of the hybrid battery?
    3. What gas mileage are you getting?
    4. What type of driving? City, highway, mixed?

    In all likely hood, the hybrid battery is weak.
     
  4. tkc100

    tkc100 Junior Member

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    136,000 miles + -
    The hybrid battery was replaced with a new not recondition battery 18 months ago.
    Dr. Prius battery life expectancy test 97.6 %. I think I am calling this test my its proper name. The test take about 10 minutes and puts a sustained load on the battery. I am still learning how to interpret the main display page.
    According to the MFD 32 to 36 MPG However when I look at the display showing the bar graph it sometimes shows 40 or so MPG.
    Using the M/G = MPG on the last tank full of gas 32.6 MPG. There was some sustained idle time while I was getting educated on OBD adapter and the associated apps.
    The data I provided was from a 23 minute test drive of both city and highway driving. Refer to the vehicle speed column. Data samples at 10 second intervals.
    I know that the EPA's and manufacture's claims are seldom if ever achieved but I can't remember ever getting less than 40 MPG with mixed driving conditions in my previous Priuses.
    The loss of fuel economy is one thing but I do not what to damage the engine or any of its components. Namely the CAT
     
  5. tkc100

    tkc100 Junior Member

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    I was also wondering if I was interpreting the data provided correctly. (Lean, Rich & Voltage)
    Fuel Trim is a %. % of what?
     
  6. Brian1954

    Brian1954 Active Member

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    Are you in Arizona? AC usage will reduce gas mileage.

    It looks like the ICE is working fine. Wait until you have four full tanks of fuel, them calculate the fuel mileage.
     
  7. Tombukt2

    Tombukt2 Senior Member

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    Just use what you're taking out and putting in these cars should almost go 400 420 mi until you're flashing light is on. Then you have about 30 mi to find gas or be sitting there looking right silly and then at that time you should be putting in about 10 gallons of fuel 10.1 10.3 I got an '09 telling me I'm getting 37.9 mi to the gallon but by the filling up and figuring out what I've taken out and all that I'm getting 40 something oh well that's about right to the above scenario driving works out and all of my generation twos which are three right now I think and it works out to be about the same some of them at different mileages or a different places on the gauges for whatever reason that doesn't matter I know I have one or two that take 300 miles to get to a half a tank and then from half a tank to a quarter is almost seemingly instantaneous and so on but at by the time the flashing pip is flashing we're sitting at 400 mi 420 somewhere in there like clockwork and all of them that I've had so far.
     
  8. Leadfoot J. McCoalroller

    Leadfoot J. McCoalroller Senior Member

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    Sounds like it's safe to rule out a tired battery- a new Toyota unit is as good as it gets.

    A/C certainly causes more fuel to be burnt, but if you've been living in Arizona for a while I'll guess you used A/C the whole time.

    A measurement error as Tombuk2 suggests could do it- worth comparing the dash display to a real calculation.
     
  9. mr_guy_mann

    mr_guy_mann Senior Member

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    When the engineers test the powertrain, they figure out what is needed (fuel, ignition advance, etc) to achieve their goals (hp, emissions, mpg). Those values are programmed into the ECM.

    As the engine runs, the ECM looks at several sensors (RPM, Mass Airflow, temperature, etc) to determine base fuel injector on time for that particular moment. After combustion, the Air Fuel Ratio sensor (located in the exhaust manifold) produces a signal that indicates the resulting AFR.

    If the engine achieved the target AFR (fuel mixture), then nothing is changed for the next injection cycle. If the AFR was "lean", then Fuel Trim makes a positive correction to add fuel. If "rich", then a negative correction to reduce fuel.

    So the "%" is a percentage of the current injector base on time. "Zero percent" is basically no correction, as it left the factory, and "everything's perfect".

    Short Term Fuel Trim is a reaction to the AF sensor. If STFT moves "too far" away from zero, Long Term FT steps in. LTFT is a learned correction that's stored in memory for a given range of "RPM x load " values. STFT plus LTFT gives you the total correction value.

    0 +/- 5% is "perfect". Up to 10% is fine. 15% means something's not right. Above 20% will set codes.

    Catalytic converter temperature could be an algorithm that's based on operating conditions. Or it's inferred by monitoring the amperage of the A/F and O2 sensor heaters. As the sensor temperature goes up, heater resistance increases, so electrical current goes down.

    That said, I have never paid much attention to converter temperatures. Fuel trims and (a lack of) engine misfires are more important for converter health.

    MPG has a bunch of things that can affect it. Tire type (low rolling resistance )& inflation, exhaust restrictions, HV battery condition, missing areo body panels, 12V battery condition, general engine "health" (compression, cam timing), etc.

    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    Brian1954 likes this.
  10. tkc100

    tkc100 Junior Member

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    Thank you all for taking the time to assist me.
    mr_guy_mann you are very good at explaining things and thanks to you I now have a much better understanding of fuel trim.
    I never considered the fact that by measuring the amperage draw / resistance of the sensors upstream and downstream it would be possible to infer the temperature of the CAT.
    I do however have one additional question.
    "0 +/- 5% is "perfect". Up to 10% is fine. 15% means something's not right. Above 20% will set codes."
    Are these figures based upon the total fuel trim (+ -) or just any movement + or - either side of 0?