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The most misunderstood aspect of the Toyota hybrid synergy drive system

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Technical Discussion' started by Paul Gregory, Jun 30, 2024 at 10:55 PM.

  1. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    A Toyota Master Diagnostic Technician explains in simple terms how the B mode works in Toyota Hybrids.


     
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  2. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    I suppose semantically it’s a “gear”, not a “mode”, as TCCN says in the title. It’s on the gear shifter.

    my sense, when I shift to B, charging reduces, and engine braking increases to slow the car more.

    There’s a downhill we often do: if I leave shifter in D, and brake as needed, battery will indicate full to the gills by approximately halfway down.

    Conversely, shifting to B at top of hill, it charges slower, less braking is needed, and battery will get to fully charged by base of hill, or even down one pip.
     
    #2 Mendel Leisk, Jul 1, 2024 at 11:38 AM
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2024 at 11:46 AM
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  3. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    The hybrid battery may have some reserve capacity to absorb energy beyond an indicated full charge, but at some point the maximum charge can be reached. Probably not in normal driving, but it can happen. If you are coasting down hill, the energy will have to be dissipated. How will you do that with a full battery? You can't keep forcing a charge indefinitely. It's just basic physics.

    With any CVT transmission, any "gear" is really just a simulation. The B is intended to stand for braking, so it could be considered a gear, I suppose, but I consider it a mode. Although it may never occur for some drivers, and the B mode may seem superfluous, I have been on some very long downslopes, where you descend thousands of feet in elevation over long distances, like 20 miles. This can be quite dangerous for some vehicles, including 18 wheelers, if the driver is too heavy on the brakes, which can be destroyed by overheating. This is the cause of many runaway rigs, and the reason runaway lanes were built, and why the engine brake was invented.

    In most conventional passenger vehicles, this is not a serious problem. Engine drag is usually sufficient to keep speeds in check, as it was when I drove my VW Golf in British Columbia last year. some of the signs warned of a 6% grade or higher. I was able to handle this by downshifting, but occasionally, this was not enough, so I applied friction brakes for short, intense periods. This was intended to slow the car rapidly, and then allow the brakes to cool. Other drivers were not as careful, as evidenced by the smell of burnt brake linings in the air.

    With my Prius, it's a different story. There is no downshifting; I only have D, R, P and B on the shifter. It wouldn't matter anyway, because the engine is shut off descending a hill. I can rely on a bit of "simulated engine drag" from regeneration without applying the brakes. This is evident, by seeing the CHG indicator on the instrument panel, as it does whenever a Prius decelerates as you let off the accelerator. Of course it's not real engine braking, because as the guy says, the engine is off.

    I can rely on this simulated engine braking as I begin my long descent, but at some point, the hybrid battery could get to full charge. At this point, there's no place for regeneration to put the energy. Friction brakes are the other option, but not a good one, for reasons previously explained. As the expert said, this is where Prius engineers had an ingenious idea, the B mode. I don't know what happens if you use it in normal driving (no reason for this that I can see) it may provide regeneration, but you will get the same braking effect by applying regen braking with the pedal.

    Some doubters have denied that a Prius will pick up dangerous speeds on a hill when regen braking is not available. What's stopping this? The engine is stopped, and friction braking will be inadequate. Applying B mode will run the engine in a special mode, where the valve timing is reconfigured to compress air, acting as an engine brake. As the expert in the video said, this feature is not well documented, and it took a deep dive to research it. But common sense can give you the same conclusion.
     
    #3 Paul Gregory, Jul 1, 2024 at 12:24 PM
    Last edited: Jul 1, 2024 at 12:29 PM
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    from what i've read, b mode operates differently in plugins than lift backs
     
  5. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    It's kind of cute to think that only the driver (who's super smart) can make the drivetrain behave a certain way by pushing a lever to B mode that the poor dumb car couldn't figure out itself if necessary.

    As if when's there's no regen to be had, the drivetrain's just going to throw its metaphorical hands up in confusion and be utterly unable to start the engine to provide any drag for D until someone helps it out by selecting B?

    :ROFLMAO:

    (Also trying to imagine an engineering meeting where someone is insisting "you can't start the engine in D mode!")

    I'll agree that the amount of drag the drivetrain gives you is affected by B, and hence at what charge level engine braking will start, but the idea that D will just act like N when the battery's full because the car's too dumb to start engine braking itself at all without B is ludicrous.

    We've already had people here asking for help in limiting their plug-in charge to stop the car automatically starting the engine for braking.
     
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  6. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    I'm surprised it took so long for the know-it-all to appear. It's a bit puerile to deliberately not read the posting, and then make stupid comments about it.
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not their own facts.
     
  7. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    As he said, this is one of the most misunderstood aspects about the Prius drivetrain.
    As evidenced by all the ignorant comments being made about it.
     
  8. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    I read it all - a lot of waffle that no-one really disagrees with, all trying to distract from the fact that you are insisting contrary to common sense and evidence that the "ingenious idea" of engine braking - which we all agree the car does - can for some reason only happen with the manual "B" selection.

    I can imagine you designing a system like that, but I can't imagine Toyota doing it; also plenty of users report engine starts for braking with a full battery in D mode, while no-one, including you, has observed D giving up and acting like N the way your system would.
     
  9. Paul Gregory

    Paul Gregory Active Member

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    Like I said, all you need is common sense.
     
  10. KMO

    KMO Senior Member

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    This bit's maybe the biggest misconception:

    Um, no, the engine could be running for all sorts of reasons. To generate heat for the cabin, to complete a warm-up cycle, or to stop an MG1 overspeed. It really is not universally true that "the engine is shut off descending a hill". Starting the engine to cause drag and bleed off energy is just another possible reason to have it running on top of all the other ones. And it can happen automatically like all the other ones.

    The Prius really isn't as simplistic as you think it is.