Featured 1 in 5 Californians have swapped their EV for a gas car — and this is to blame

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by jerrymildred, May 5, 2021.

  1. ETC(SS)

    ETC(SS) The OTHER One Percenter.....

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2010
    6,731
    5,606
    0
    Location:
    Redneck Riviera (Gulf South)
    Vehicle:
    2010 Prius
    Model:
    II
    Granted.
    It's tough to be cool and eco-chic at the same time.
    Tougher still to do all of that while not looking like something from a failed origami class.

    One of the really cool things about electrocars is that they can actually do all of these things reasonably well at once.

    It's kinda like Apple was back in the old days when their products were overly expensive and to suggest that they were the least bit imperfect in any way quickly brought on the wrath of their owners.
    Finally, they applied some cooperate course corrections and the market matured to the point where they were price competitive with most of their near-peers.
    Apples even have something approaching a sense of humor about their hardware these days.....

    You can get a new iphonethingy for less that $400 (*) that isn't substantially more expensive than a comparably equipped Droid, and the flagship Driods now employ the same planned obsolescence philosophies that used to drive non technophobes away from worshiping at the Jobs altar.

    There are parallels in the EVangelist community, which is why studies like those in the OP draw more internet clicks than non-oxegenarian Presidents whose name starts with a "t".

    BUT...from the beginning, even before Musk bought the company, Teslas have always understood that piety ALONE isn't enough of a draw to fill the pews and convert the wicked..... ;)

    Teslas are that rarest of high-end, technology disruptors that manage to turn ON more people than their owners turn off.... ;)

    (*) $399 MSRP.
    10% cheaper if you're military or an educator, and it's not a bad phone!
     
    #61 ETC(SS), May 14, 2021
    Last edited: May 14, 2021
  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    16,594
    7,821
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    50kW was what the earliest CCS units were limited to. 200+kW is what they have to be to be comparable to Supercharger v3.
    A regulation in Europe effectively made CCS the official standard of the EU. With that, Tesla made the Model 3 for there CCS instead of their own connector, and started converting the Superchargers already installed. They put out an adapter and retrofit kits for older models there.

    South Korea is getting a Tesla adapter for CCS 1 this year. It is likely just a matter of time until North America gets it.
    Tesla announces new CCS charging adapter but North America launch still unclear - Electrek

    There are third party adapters of questionable reliability.
     
  3. salyavin

    salyavin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    37
    9
    0
    Location:
    Littleton, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    They really should sell adapters at least in the US as CHAdeMO does not look like it has much of a future and if adapter supports it higher speeds are available in the US on CCS vs CHAdeMO (CHAdeMO is capable of higher speeds it is just not built in the US and won't be). I suspect you are right if it is coming to Korea we may be able to get it here in the future.

    I would prefer Tesla join a standard rather than having their own special charge cable We don't need a GM only gas station and a Toyota only gas station, I want the same to apply for charging. This includes Rivian incidentally. I doubt we will have similar regulation as the EU but if we did that would be fine as it helps make it easier for people to convert. Another thing that would help is a credit card payment option on all chargers not everyone wants to mess with installing an app for some weird network or a handful of RFID cards (I have 5 for my non Tesla EV which I have in addition to my Prius).
     
  4. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    16,594
    7,821
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The issue with Tesla's standard was timing. There was no CCS when the Model S came out, and CHAdeMO was too slow for them even then. The Supercharger is large in North America, with the third party networks just starting to catch up. Even then, most of those chargers are slower than a Supercharger. With Most BEVs in the US being Teslas, I don't see them dropping their standard unless pressured from the outside.
     
  5. salyavin

    salyavin Junior Member

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2011
    37
    9
    0
    Location:
    Littleton, Colorado
    Vehicle:
    2011 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    It would have been good if they joined a standard and helped improve it. CHAdeMO at the time was only 50kw that is true it also takes more space on the car with the two separate connectors (J1172 for AC is a separate connector). They could have proposed theirs as a standard without all the conditions they attach. Basically for a company who states they want to promote EVs they contribute to a mess when they could have helped make or improve a standard.
     
  6. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

    Joined:
    Jun 23, 2005
    17,211
    6,619
    54
    Location:
    South OC So Cal & Nashville, TN
    Vehicle:
    2004 Prius
    Model:
    IV
    make up yer own facts if you want to, but yes, it does matter to MANY. Not everyone. No one said that.
    .
     
    austingreen likes this.
  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    16,594
    7,821
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    CHAdeMO is not an open standard. Don't know if they still do, but back then they charged licensing fees to use it. Supposedly even to just experiment with it.

    It would be years until CCS came out.

    Of the three, Tesla's is probably the better one. It was designed for faster rates with DC charging from the beginning. CCS can go faster, but the chargers capable of it are likely fewer in number. If you want Level 2 at home with other plug ins another EVSE needs to be purchased for hundreds of dollars. With Tesla, it just needs an adapter that costs around $50 for the particular outlet.
     
  8. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    24,224
    13,769
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I would prefer adoption of the Tesla connector as the standard:
    • smaller and lighter than CCS-1 with 150-250 kW capacity
    • handles both AC and DC
    • integrated charge back by reading VIN
    • network shares charging lane status
    Every day, Tesla SuperChargers exhibit what are promised for every other 'standard.' Standardize was works, not what too often remains promised.

    Bob Wilson
     
  9. meeder

    meeder Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2019
    206
    134
    0
    Location:
    Doesburg, The Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Will Tesla allow other companies to use their connector?
     
  10. dubit

    dubit Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    845
    532
    23
    Location:
    Indiana
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius c
    Model:
    Two

    Dude, just how much else does the taxpayer have to pay for? These things will come because of the simple fact they will have to. But why should the taxpayer pay for it? Stations right here in Indiana area already adding these things. Let's not pay for it if we don't have to. We're paying for enough as it is.

    On another note: "What if" the automotive side did like (I think it was/is Cummins?) and pursue a removable battery pack. A universal pack per say - simply pull into a station, unplug and drop the old one. Slide a new one in. Seems like a good idea and I can see how this would work great for the long haul truckers. So why not the automotive side?\

    Just a thought/idea.
     
    #70 dubit, May 16, 2021
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
  11. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,250
    1,311
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Sure, that’s a valid question. What I’m suggesting here is not whether the Biden Administration should subsidize EV infrastructure (they’ve already decided that they want to do so), but given that they do, then what type of EV infrastructure to prioritize.
     
  12. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    5,250
    3,320
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Tesla did have input when the standards were created.
    Of course, they were tiny at the time, and I don’t think anyone took them seriously at the time.
    Tesla’s connector is superior in many ways, and they were building a charging network faster than the others for many years.
    Why go backwards and potentially slow your own sales by adopting a worse standard?
     
    #72 Zythryn, May 16, 2021
    Last edited: May 16, 2021
    Trollbait, bwilson4web and mr88cet like this.
  13. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    5,250
    3,320
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Yes, they made a very public offer to any car manufacturer.
    The deal was Tesla would provide the connector and the manufacturer would help build out the supercharger network in proportion to the number of cars they were adding to the network.
     
    meeder and bwilson4web like this.
  14. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,250
    1,311
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    One of my Tesla-fan co-workers described CCS, with its type-1 vs. type-2 variants, as “the ultimate in ‘design by committee.’” I agree; Tesla’s plug is far simpler and has fewer contacts to fail over time.

    Unfortunately though, I personally perceive that accepting standards is ultimately the better approach, all-in-all.
     
  15. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    16,594
    7,821
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Access to the Supercharger network was answered, but I don't know if another car company can use Tesla's standard for AC charging instead of j1772. Musk did open up Tesla's patents a few years ago, but there is the question of legal details.

    I'd say 'at home' charging for those that don't have access.

    It's better than CHAdeMO's approach.

    Shame the American and European car industries didn't feel the need to develop a DC standard until after Tesla started beating them in sales, and CHAdeMO starting showing up outside of Japan then.

    I don't see the issue with Tesla having their own standard. If it is a hassle to anyone, it is a hassle to their customers only. They are the ones stuck to a single DC charging network, or they would be if Tesla didn't work on providing options to make use of CHAdeMO and CCS. Considering how well they are doing selling cars, their customers don't have a problem with it. Should we pressure Apple to move the iPhone to Android?

    The idea of a car company having a gas station just for their cars doesn't apply. The majority of charging is done at home. Tesla's Superchargers aren't like a car company saying you can only refuel at their stations. The network is more like Costco and BJ's, where members can buy gas for cheaper than the public stations.
     
    iplug and Zythryn like this.
  16. mr88cet

    mr88cet Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2008
    2,250
    1,311
    0
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Indeed, that’s what I suggest we all write the Biden Administration to advocate.

    It prevents Tesla owners from using, for example, Electrify America stations, and also prevents other EV drivers from using Tesla Superchargers. Granted, there does now exist a CCS-to-Tesla adapter, but I gather it has some limitations.
     
  17. meeder

    meeder Active Member

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2019
    206
    134
    0
    Location:
    Doesburg, The Netherlands
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    That would have been a good choice for the other manufacturers. Without uniformity one way or another you keep fiddling with adapters and/or having to drive to other charging stations because the charger isn't compatible with your car.
     
  18. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2008
    5,250
    3,320
    1
    Location:
    Minnesota
    Vehicle:
    Other Electric Vehicle
    Model:
    N/A
    Neither is really an issue, especially now that ChaDeMo is dying.
    I haven’t needed to use an adapter once in 10 years of driving electrics.
    It just isn’t that big of a deal for many.

    I do agree a standard is preferential.
    However, I feel a better plug is more important than a substandard “standard” just for the sake of having a standard.
     
    bwilson4web, Trollbait and meeder like this.
  19. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    16,594
    7,821
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Tesla went to CCS in Europe, converting the Superchargers there to it, and other EV owners still can't use them. Tesla built those stations for their car customers. There are many private fuel stations out there that won't fill the car of just anyone that shows up. Tesla has said they'll let other EVs use their network when the other car companies pay into it. Changing the plug on a Supercharger doesn't change that requirement.

    As for Tesla owners not having access to CCS or CHAdeMO, that is a choice they made. Diesel once wasn't available at every gas station. Less access to refueling was a choice diesel car owners made then. Seeing how the Supercharger network is the most expansive one in the US, Tesla owners are probably better served than diesel cars decades ago.
     
    Zythryn and bwilson4web like this.
  20. dbstoo

    dbstoo Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2012
    470
    243
    0
    Location:
    Near Silicon Valley
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Advanced
    Plain and simple, the supercharger network is designed to be a barrier to entry for competition. Monopolies like to do that, and at one point Tesla was a monopoly in many areas.

    They discourage people from buying competitive products by offering free, exclusive access to the superchargers. The token offer that anyone can use their charger is a bogus, since it requires an exorbitant investment as well as legal hoops as far as releasing rights to IP.

    The reality is that BEVs work best when they are used within the home charging capacity. That means that if you charge the battery for the length of your commute, it's viable. If not, then it's not a good choice for you. Yes, you can make long trips, but not without making concessions.
     
Loading...