11377 Primes sold so far in USA this year!

OK congrats John I missed that you made the Prime purchase, but I certainly knew that was your plan

 

When would the item be on the ground? It would be at arm height already... which is the very thing we've experienced. Again, this is real-world observation from actual ownership. Toyota is willing to try different approaches and figured out that practical is more important than perception.

Try carrying groceries out from the store or taking off your backpack when approaching the car. The benefit quickly becomes obvious. Then reverse the process when leaving.

 

How about when you put it down to open the hatch?
Oh, it's in a cart. Well, heavy and/or bulky items, the ones you don't want to be lifting higher than absolutely necessary, tend to be transported from the store in carts lower than the bumper.

Really, if a higher cargo floor is a must, a pick up truck is probably the better buy for that person.

 

This almost reads like alternative facts.

 

So I realize this discussion has been about MORE than just the Prime and the Volt... and yet:

For those who complain that the Prime only seats 4 whereas the Volt seats 5... just "YOU" try getting into that middle-back so-called seat! I checked out a new Volt about three months ago... I could BARELY get into that seat, it was EXTREMELY uncomfortable, and I literally NEEDED ASSISTANCE getting out of it! (For what it's worth, I'm NOT very large... 5'-9" and 165 pounds. MAYBE very agile children up to about age 14 would "survive" having to occupy that seat for anything longer than a 20 minute trip across town....)

AND... I would MUCH rather have a car that ACTUALLY seats four inside 91.5 cu ft of passenger volume (the Prime), than have a car that THEORETICALLY seats five in 90.0 cu ft of passenger volume! AND... the last time I checked, 10.6 cu ft cargo volume / space (Volt) is WAY less than 19.8 cu ft cargo volume / space (Prime). AND... EPA estimated MPG (54 Prime vs 42 Volt) once out of electric range. AND 133 MPGe vs 106 MPGe....

IN SHORT: IF the info I've discussed above were to be more widely disseminated / more specifically compared when people go car-shopping, I believe the Prime would be WAY ahead of the Volt as far as total US sales so far in 2017 are concerned!

 

Both of us parked at work yesterday...

That's the new term for "spin" posting. The intent hasn't changed though. Spin of the past was to dissuade without evidence or merit. Being an actual owner pointing out real-world experience is different. Detail reveals & overcomes.

I did... and my wife took a photo to document the experience:



That middle seat is a joke. People literally laughed when I sat in that Volt for the photo. We all knew it was cramped, but when an average sized man at 5'8" fits so poorly, it's hard to take the situation seriously. What in the world was GM thinking?

 

i'll be adding a 2x4 frame to the pip with a plywood top, to give my back some relief.

 

Finding a positive to counter negatives is still spin.

They were actually listening to owners of the previous generation and customer research.

When the gen1 Volt came out, I defended it with pretty much the same argument; cars of that size rarely are used to haul 5 adults around. But most cars of that size do come with seating for five. People are more likely to simply note the loss of something than to give thought to whether the missing thing was something actually needed or not.

Putting in even a half seat for the middle rear was good marketing. The seat is good enough for a child and child seat, so car buyers with young can't immediately strike it off their potential list. Then even if they never use it, many buyers have that 'what if' mentality when it comes to how many people they can transport and AWD and whatever. Then seating for five is expected. The only cars that seat only 4 with 4 doors on the market are even smaller, or expensive enough that those could afford them can afford to pay someone else to drive them around.

The grounding of my criticism of the Prime's seating for four and reduced cargo space is because the plug in market is no longer new, and this isn't Toyota's first attempt. Instead of a better PiP that improved that model's shortcomings while maintaining its strengths, we got the Prime which appeared to have embraced what were the shortcomings in others. The gen1 Volt and Ford Energi's were regularly criticized for having just 4 seats or losing 6 cubic feet of cargo space to the battery. Toyota could not have been unaware of that, yet that is what came in the Prime. Coming to market later is suppose to be an advantage in that you can learn from the competitors missteps.

As for the Prime to Volt comparison, you aren't using like figures for the cargo space. The 10.6 figure for the Volt is just the space up to the top of rear seats, and the Prime's is a to the ceiling figure. That for the Volt is 19 cu ft. Then the Volt's 53 mile EV range is a big draw for those looking for the EV experience. I suspect the Prime will eventually beat this Volt in sales on the price difference.

 

Closely following advice from early adopters & enthusiasts is a fundamental mistake GM made twice. Sure glad Toyota didn't do that.

Prime stayed true to the keep-it-affordable approach which has been an overwhelming attractive attribute of the Prius design. PIP broke that rule, but it was only a mid-cycle rollout to a very limited market... which allowed Toyota to collect a priceless assortment of real-world data to design their first wide-audience offering. They delivered that with Prime. $27,100 is a very compelling start price for the masses, who are only now taking their first look at plug-in hybrids.

Of course, with so many people complaining about the cramped seating in back, the fact that GM actually reduced headroom a little bit for gen-2 contradicts the claim of GM listening to Volt criticism.

 

I got the car despite knowing it’s shortcomings. I know that it can only seat 4 and cargo volume is significantly impacted. In my case, I didn’t think they were a significant enough of a deal breaker.

I just don’t think I could ever lie to myself and think “wow this is great! Thank you toyota for realizing that having 4 seats is actually a feature along with a raised trunk space so I can easily grab something in the back while sitting in one of those 2 seats.

The volt improved everything that was derided on with the second generation. There are 5 seats, mpg is improved, and range is up. They didn’t really create new problems which is what Toyota did when they “fixed” the pip.

 

What a bizarre spin on what was actually presented. Placing and removing objects from the car in the hatch area has absolutely nothing to do with reaching something while sitting.

The most important aspect still falls short: PRICE. Sales growth hasn't been achieved, despite the $7,500 subsidy. When that tax-credit expires, then what? 5,000 per month is a minimum for realistic sustainable, profitable sales. Not coming anywhere close to that by the end of year-2 for gen-2 is the reason for consideration of cancel. Using the tech in some other vehicle is viable, but Volt itself simply doesn't have a big enough audience for the production-cost and resulting price.

 

Ahhh, yes... SO much "headroom"! I forgot to mention that earlier... as well as how the middle passenger's legs infringe upon the other two seated back there.... I don't know what GM was thinking, but they should be legally "punished" (fined, perhaps?) for FALSELY (as far as I'm concerned) claiming that the Volt seats five.

 

That represents far more diverse feedback source than what GM used. Their very limited subset was a red flag about not understanding audience. The larger market was not taken into consideration, a point I brought up over and over and over...

 

oh right, the pick up truck drivers.

 

I try and give people the opportunity to see, I drive with my lights on all the time.

 

I'm doing the lease program, through my father (salaried employee; I'm a contracted employee currently). I simply pay the payment $400/mth and gas. They pay for all maintenance and the full coverage insurance.

I got the Advanced, Blue Magnetism with every option possible and it came to $33,136.00.

Unfortunate part is, courtesy vehicles have to be factory ordered. I placed my order back in last April, still waiting to get the car. They "think" it should be here maybe in 2 weeks but I have a feeling it will be later than that.

Closest one to me is 350+ miles away. I've been able to see one at work but still have never sat in one or taken one for a test drive.

 

Instead they prioritized the Japanese market during development, and say they'll improve the resulting compromises for the North American market later, while a Toyota faithful tries to spin those compromises as positives and forward thinking.

The PiP was overpriced because Toyota wanted it that way. They felt their first plug in would be able to stand on its own, without support, from the launch. Perhaps Toyota only supports new tech when they can get the tax payers to foot the bill.

Again, Toyota doing something, taking data from early adopters and enthusiasts in this case, is a good thing, but is a bad thing for GM.

We both know car design requires compromises. Improving efficiency for the gen2 Volt was likely a bigger priority than rear headroom for what was still going to be a compact/C class car. My gen2 Prius had cramped rear headroom, but I'd rather have the better aerodynamics for efficiency that resulted in that headroom.

Seating for four wouldn't take the Prime off a list of cars for me. I'd have to see one in person, and try loading some pieces of luggage into it, before deciding on the cargo space. We don't have kids though, and have just one niece. So I think we aren't close to the typical car buyer in America.

The after market conversion feel to the lost cargo space just might annoy me too much. The Prime loses(keep in mind it doesn't have a spare tire) as much cargo space as the C-max Energi. The C-max platform wasn't designed with a hybrid mind, let alone a PHV. What is Toyota's excuse for the Prime, their second generation PHV? The Audi A3 plug in loses far less trunk space with the same capacity battery pack.

You left out that the new Volt starts for thousands less than the first one.

Again you skip over the price reduction of the Volt between the generations. The high price of the gen1 was a criticism you voiced in the past. Yet you can't acknowledge how GM addressed that in the gen2, let alone acknowledge that they might be able to reduce the price again when they lose the federal incentive.

Market growth is not as high as we would wish, but how is the plain old Prius sales doing these days? Low fuel prices has lead the majority of American car buyers to turn away from fuel efficient vehicles. Then changes in style tastes have lead to lower popularity for the simple car. Despite this, the plug in segment continues to grow, and the Volt makes up a large part of it.

There are other values to consider beyond production cost and price; some aren't easily expressed in dollars. By your criteria, the Corvette should have been axed years ago.

Firend had a'79 Camaro back in high school. I have ridden in the middle rear seat of it. The Volt's seat looks far more comfortable.

GM put that half seat into the Volt for the same reason Burger King has(or is it had?) a veggie burger on its menu. BK put it there so that the sole vegetarian in a group deciding on were to eat couldn't flat out veto them as an option. The Volt's fifth seat works the same way. When a person starts looking into which car to buy, they now can't take the Volt off that list before doing more research because the number of passengers is four, and they might, someday, though more likely never, have to transport five people.

Got any evidence that GM used just that limited subset for their research?
How about any evidence that the fifth seat is hurting sales?

 

We have some sales trend data:

• Bolt - nice increase in sales probably due to manufacturing supply ... before the line was shutdown for maintenance/restructuring.
• Volt - downward trend which may be due to Bolt fratricide.
• Prius Prime - downward trend since it is past the initial, new model release boost.
• Tesla models - big drop suspected of being due to Model 3 kickoff.

Bob Wilson

 

The Tesla numbers aren't going to be as accurate for comparison since the official ones from the company only come out quarterly. Then they have halted domestic production to make cars for export, which will have an impact on their build to order model.