12V battery group size

Discussion in 'Gen 4 Prius Main Forum' started by christiandflores, Nov 9, 2017.

  1. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    actually, those references were before the gen 4 came out. the battery was moved from the hatch to the engine bay, and the size increased. that's why the lookup on the battery websites doesn't work for gen 4.
     
  2. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    The Gen 4 came out almost 2 years ago. That is ancient in parts data lookup time.
     
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  3. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    agreed, don't know what the hold up is. apparently, toyota chose to go with another odd battery size?
     
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  4. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    The inverter in the Prius is not designed to charge a larger battery.
     
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  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    then let's keep the complexity down.
     
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  6. christiandflores

    christiandflores Junior Member

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    Why not? That’s like saying my charger can charge my iPhone but not an iPad because it has a bigger battery. It just takes longer.


    iPhone ?
     
  7. Elektroingenieur

    Elektroingenieur Senior Member

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    There isn’t one. The auxiliary (12-volt) battery in a fourth-generation Prius is designed to a European Norm (EN) standard (probably the EN 50342 series, though Toyota doesn’t say so), not to a group number assigned by Battery Council International (BCI). As Toyota writes in the New Car Features book (available by subscription to techinfo.toyota.com):

    CAUTION:
    There is no size listing for the EN battery similar to existing auxiliary battery. When replacing the auxiliary battery, use an auxiliary battery that is the same size as the auxiliary battery installed on the vehicle and that has a battery capacity that is equal to or greater than 20 HR.

    As @Prodigyplace mentions, the battery on many fourth-generation Prius cars is marked “20HR 45Ah CCA 295A(EN).” I shared a photo of mine in another thread, and it’s also marked “345LN1-MF 28800-37140.”

    345LN1-MF seems to be a proprietary designation. GS YUASA is one of Toyota’s original equipment suppliers, as you can see in @jdenenberg's photo, and a press release gives a few specifications for their LN1 battery. GS YUASA also has a page (in Japanese) describing their ENJ-LN1, an aftermarket replacement.

    28800-37140 is Toyota’s part number for the battery, but I don’t think it’s available under that number as a service part in the United States, where Toyota instead sells replacement batteries under the TrueStart trademark. Their battery application guide (PDF) doesn’t seem to have been updated in a while, though, and I’m not sure I’d rely on the 00544-21171-325 part number listed there without further investigation.
     
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  8. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    Thank you.
    Is the battery the same for the Prime?

    The 0544 number came from an online dealer source I have used in the past. I looked up 2016 because earlier they were late in listing the 2017 Prius.
     
  9. GT4Prius

    GT4Prius Active Member

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    45ah is overkill for the job the Prius battery has to do. It is capable of powering a starter motor, but the car doesn't use it for that. Not wimpy at all for the purpose it serves.

    In your situation I would:

    1. Check the spec of the dashcam to find out what the current draw is.
    2. Calculate how long a fully charged 45 ah battery should keep the dashcam running. If this is significantly more than the run time I was getting in practice, I would get the battery checked by an Auto Electrician. Batteries can be damaged by being allowed to go flat. If battery shows ok, I would get the car checked for a fault that may be causing a current draw while the car is not in use.
    3. Calculate what size battery I would need in order to run the dashcam for the length of time I require,and check whether such a battery will fit physically in the car. N.B. Unless you do this, you risk fitting a larger battery that still does not meet your requirements!
    If a powerful enough battery will not physically fit, then find a different dashcam with lower power draw or a different solution, possibly even leaving the car connected to a battery charger if the car is parked in my drive.

    Note that if you bought a Prime, this will keep the aux battery charged up while the car is connected to a charger. So a Prime and a home charger, if that is an option for you, could solve the problem so long as you plugged in every time you were home. Unless you leave the car unused for long periods when away from home.




    Posted via the PriusChat mobile app.
     
    #29 GT4Prius, Nov 10, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  10. David Beale

    David Beale Senior Member

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    The DIN number I posted is for the fourth gen. and it's a European size. It's not rocket science people, I entered 2016 as the model year. The site displayed "2015 to current year".
    As far as putting in a larger capacity battery I doubt you can. There just isn't room. Toyota engineers had to work hard to make room for the battery you have. They shrunk the inverter for example, as discussed in the introduction literature. There would be no issue regarding the ability of the car to handle (charge) a larger capacity battery, there just isn't room for one.
    Now you -could- put an Optima or similar "sealed" battery in the back, perhaps where the third gen one is, and wire it in parallel with the main 12V battery. It wouldn't have much effect at high current loads (which the Prius doesn't have), but it would help with the lower current draw of a dashcam. It would bring in issues with charging though (voltage "arguments" between the two batteries), but it would probably be fine. BTW, I put "sealed" in quote marks because there is NO "sealed" lead acid battery that I'm aware of. They have to have a vent or they would explode. Now after saying that, I just physically looked at an "Odyssey" battery at "Battery World" that had NO vent holes, hidden or otherwise. Perhaps they use a catalyst inside to recombine the H2 and O2. It was in the "Prius size" (gen 2 and 3) but slightly taller. Now they have my interest. ;)

    Most dashcams can be set to go into sleep mode until awakened by movement. I think that is your only practical option.
     
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  11. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    is this nonsense a toyota ploy to keep people at the dealer for battery replacement?

    anybody get a dealer price for replacement yet?
     
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  12. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 'Orrible Oracle

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    Maybe someone with a fourth gen can measure and post their battery outside dimensions, plus the post diameters?
     
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  13. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    I believe US & Japanese post sizes tend to be different. What are the standard sizes?
     
  14. Since2002

    Since2002 Senior Lurker

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    Like maybe the OP?

    Is it? I don't see how placing a constant drain on a 12V car battery when not in operation is a proper solution. People do it, just like they sit in a drive-in movie theater running their radio with the engine off. Not good but that's only for a couple of hours and is not a daily practice. Meanwhile your dash cam will be running off the battery probably 22 hours a day depending on your commute time, unless you switch it off when home in your garage but still that will be 8 plus hours five days a week of run time when you are at work.

    That doesn't make it a proper solution, it just means that you got away with it. A proper solution would be something like this:

    BlackboxMyCar | Cellink Battery B 2nd Generation

    And even if you got away with it on other cars, you can't necessarily apply your previous experience to Prius because the 12V on the Prius is not used for the same purpose as other cars. On other cars the 12V is used to crank the engine, and it has to do so even in cold conditions. The Prius 12V is used only to power the computer and other electronics during startup, the HV battery does the engine cranking. The HV battery then recharges the 12V once things are up and running. For this reason previous generations of Prius used a comparatively small, low capacity 12V battery, the battery on my Gen 2 for example is 9.25L x 5W x 8H. So far no one in this thread has posted the dimensions on the Gen 4 battery, so if you don't mind can you measure yours and post it.

    The previous Gen batteries, besides being "wimpy" were also not easy to get to, it was sort of an advanced DIY procedure to replace it. And they were an odd size which meant you couldn't just go to your local auto parts store and buy a replacement, you either went to Toyota or bought an Optima. In Gen 4 they moved the battery up front for easier replacement, and also increased the size, presumably to make it not only longer life but also to (hopefully) make it easier to purchase non-OEM replacements. Not that they like giving up the sale, but I think (i.e. hope) that they eventually recognized that people don't like being forced to go to the dealer for an expensive 12V battery replacement no more than they are willing to go to the dealer to replace their tires. People expect to be able to buy tires and 12V batteries anywhere.

    However it remains to be seen if the new Gen 4 battery size will be easy to find, affordable, or (related to your question) have improved capacity while still fitting in the available space. The problem is that all Gen 4's are still under warranty, so any 12V that have failed (and some have) the owners simply get it replaced at the dealer. That's why no one seems to have any information on replacement 12V for Gen 4, at least not on this or previous threads that I have searched. It reminds me of when Gen 1 was still new, there was all kinds of speculation (most of it wrong) about the cost of replacing the HV battery, that's because for the first several years any HV battery failures were under warranty for 8 years and 100,000 so they were all being replaced under warranty during that time and Toyota did not publish an HV battery price during that time.

    At some point soon Gen 4 battery warranties will start running out and I'm sure there will then be plenty of posts on PriusChat with details about pricing, brands etc. for replacement.
     
    #34 Since2002, Nov 10, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2017
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  15. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    I did not post it when I grabbed the part number. Part 9 is some sort of battery box.

    upload_2017-11-10_10-12-55.png

    From 2016 Toyota Prius Parts - metrotoyotapartsnow.com
     
  16. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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  17. christiandflores

    christiandflores Junior Member

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    I already have the “proper solution”. The dashcam is hardwired and uses a parking mode, voltage cut off is built in. The problem is that the battery capacity is too small. So even if it charges to the full capacity, the voltage gets down low.

    DIY wise I could probably do anything listed in this forum. So I’m not worried on that end.


    iPhone ?
     
  18. christiandflores

    christiandflores Junior Member

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    Btw battery size is about 8x7x8. The terminal posts are about 5/8” of an inch


    iPhone ?
     
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  19. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

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    8x7x8 == Length x Width x Height ?

    Using the diagram in post 35, which post is positive?
     
  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 'Orrible Oracle

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    So does dash camera run continuously when the car's parked and off, until it detects battery voltage has dropped below a certain point? If so, I think you'll have ongoing problems, no matter what you come up with.
     
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