1st Fuel Cell to Market: Not Toyota

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by hill, Jun 4, 2014.

  1. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    If the auto manufacturers were footing the bill for the hydrogen stations or even the oil industry I wouldn't have an issue with these overpriced vehicles but they are not paying for their "eggs". They are forcing that on the taxpayers via auto registration. Sorry for repeating myself but I don't want that expensive issue to just slip through the cracks.
    .
     
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  2. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    The membrane is used to separate the H2 from the CO2 after steam reformation.
    How many hydrogen production facilities are actually using it? Going by publication dates it seems bench and some pilot scale research was going on still in 2007. Current papers are focused on separation from gassified coal.
    I can have PVs, a wind turbine, or even a NG generator or fuel cell to power my home. Honda sells an Atkinson cycle home cogen unit in Japan that is 92% efficient in the combined cycles. http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0CE8QFjAI&url=http%3A%2F%2Fphys.org%2Fpdf267782683.pdf&ei=ezWvU6vNE6fi8gGopoGoCg&usg=AFQjCNHLzB5t4Syc1onsEhGOvwaV2x27dQ&sig2=-7-XgsZps1REzenZEd7C8Q&bvm=bv.69837884,d.b2U&cad=rja
    I am not ignoring it. I think using a grid average based on dated numbers to compare to best case hydrogen production ones is misleading. If today's FCEV is only going to be available in southern California, shouldn't its potential leasees use that region's grid mix for plug ins?

    An individual plug in isn't going to be powered by the average grid. So building the car to that as a priority can lead to design decisions that lessen its attractioness to potential buyers.

    Using the average makes policy and nationwide issues easier to deal with, but if you are going to deal with an average in one place, you should use an average across the board. The Tesla S emits 250g CO2/mile on the average gird. A little more than the Prius' 222g/mile. However, the Prius isn't the average car. The average new vehicle emits 480g CO2/mile.
    Deemed by who?
    It can be clean. So can diesel made in a biomass to liquid process. The GREET model actually has that as carbon negative. But how likely will that be used in large scale in a reasonable time frame? How clean will making it from coal be in Japan or when NG prices rise?
    If the car manufacturers truly believe in FCEV, they would give more than a token amount to build the infrastructure. They got billions for R&D. Monetary carrots to offer these cars. Why do we have to build the infrastructure to help them sell their products? Do we get reimbursed if methanol fuel cells become commercial?

    Other, clean options are already on the market. If the manufacturers can't make a FCEV work, without massive government handouts, at this time, then sell them where they will and come back when they will work here. Because they can be a great range extender to a plug in, I'm not calling to end our support in the R&D side.
    What problem are FCEVs supposed to fix? Energy independence, carbon emissions, or something else.
     
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  3. hill

    hill High Fiber Member

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    Not so - a single solar panel (pound-for-pound) produces more kWh's of energy than a single dead dinosaur's equivalent energy value ...
    Even under our non-ideal install we'll get well over 7,500 kWh's per panel over their 2 decade warranty - and after that (although their efficiency drops) - the solar will still be producing. And ..... unlike your dinosaur - once it gets used up - it's gone . . . . but you can STILL manufacture more solar panels. I know - I know .... like you already said, you "don't care"
    ;)
    .
     
    #83 hill, Jun 29, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2014
  4. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Toyota Asks U.S. Regulator for Exemption to Sell Fuel-Cell Car - Bloomberg
    I'm not sure if honda and hyundai have waivers for this, but if they don't it could be awhile before toyota sells fcv in the US. Regulatory agencies don't move quickly when it comes to safety waivers.

    Well at least they won't lose many sales if its delayed.;)
     
  5. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I don't think limiting sales to 2,500 the first year will be difficult.
     
  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    The technical points help to explain the issue:
    Source: Regulations.gov

    Airbag AND concurrent isolation circuit activation makes a lot of sense.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #86 bwilson4web, Jun 30, 2014
    Last edited: Jun 30, 2014
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  7. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    The original DOE funding was based on
    1) reducing oil dependence
    2) reducing air pollution

    Later in 2007, the DOE also started funding PHEVs and BEVs as these were likely to have a bigger impact on these problems.

    The DOE in 2010 that they do not expect FCV to have a positive impact on ghg for at least the next 2 decades. The EPA has a much different plan to reduce ghg by closing down low efficiency coal plants and replacing them with natural gas nd renewables.

    For california, many of us believe the reason Fuel cell cars were pushed was to end the bev mandate.
    Who Killed the Electric Car? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    We can do a little math here ;) 12.5 kg co2 hydrogen / 59 miles/kg hydrogen (honda clarity) = 211 g co2/mile which is just about how much ghg a prius produces. If you don't make hydrogen renewably, there is very little reduction of ghg versus a hybrid running gasoline. That hybrid or phev also has very low tailpipe emissions. A volt driving in california emits 200 g/mile (not much different), a tesla 150 g/mile. Nationally that much faster 85 kwh tesla S is 250 g/mile, how much would a hydrogen vehicle emit, if it was built to be as fast as a tesla 300g/mile, 400 g/mile? We don't know because the tanks and fuel cell stack are too expensive to see a fuel cell sport sedan. That is one reason there is no interest in hydrogen fueling in any state outside of california. The price of the fcv is just too high to justify paying for fueling infrastructure. In Japan we may see a big test, with lots of government funding, to drive the price down.

    The orignial doe goals still stand up to scrutany, but plug-ins do better with renewable and are more popular. Fcv still need a lot of work.

    The first year toyota is doing a production run of 1000 fcv (they still don't have a name) to sell world wide. We have had speculation from fuel cell advocates that they will sell many more the second year, as toyota's Bob carter had been saying that they will sell more than people think. We now know that the second year is at most 2500 units, and the first years sales may be delayed.
     
    #87 austingreen, Jun 30, 2014
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  8. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    So I can just replace a Leaf's roof with a solar panel, and it will generate enough power to push it down the road? (The answer is "no"..... that is why I said a solar panel doesn't really generate much instant power. Enough to spin a fan but that's about it.)
     
  9. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    Absolutely a panel on a roof of a car won't power a car well. If you are going 15,000 miles per year, and get 6 hours of sun (full power really averaged) @100 mpge car then you need around 2.3 kw of solar panels that takes about 15 square meters (9 feet by 15 feet) which is much larger than a car. YMMV use the real light in the area, miles and efficiency, angle of the roof, etc.

    2.3 kw costs approximately $11.500, but there is a 30% federal subsidy, plus local subsidies, and price vary greatly by location. Solar guys check my math. At the same time people normally put up panels to power the rest of their home.

    You would need 3x-4x of solar panels plus other equipment to fuel a fuel cell car. In either case the panels should still be working after the car is gone. Because that cost is so much higher than powering a bev, at least in the US most hydrogen will be produced with lower cost natural gas, until either solar panel installation comes down in price, or natural gas gets more expensive. For that reason, those that want to use renewables probably need a plug-in which may have a fuel cell too :) instead of a pure fuel cell vehicle like toyota, honda, and hyundai are producing.
     
  10. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    So then we agree: A solar panel put on the roof of an EV does not provide enough power to push it down the road. (Some people think it does.)
    No it isn't. You have to drill for the natural gas using diesel-powered rigs. You have to transport the CNG to some plant for processing (transport == pollution). You have to reform the CNG to H2 which throws-off a lot of pollutants + CO2. You have to transport the refined H2 to the gas station for customers (more pollution).

    Plus it isn't cost effective to drill natural gas (it costs $1.50 to get $1 of fuel). A solar-powered or hydro-powered EV is much much cleaner.

    Dream of U.S. Oil Independence Slams Against Shale Costs - Bloomberg
     
    #90 Troy Heagy, Jun 30, 2014
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  11. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    Now you are moving the goalposts.
    No question putting solar panels on the roof of a car is a very poor implementation.
    Of course, you could also say tires don't work because if you only inflate it to 10 psi you get awful results.

    The idea behind Tesla's use of solar panels is to offset the power used to charge the cars. It isn't, and never was meant to supply real time power.
    One 300 Watt panel, properly orientated, should give you about 330 kWh over a year.
    The average 'fill' for a Model S is just over 30 kWh.
    If there are 80 panels, that is roughly equal to 880 charges, or a little more than 2/day. Or, 88,000 miles of charging per year per station. Or 8,600,000 miles per year for the entire network ONCE the solar panels are fully deployed.
     
  12. 3PriusMike

    3PriusMike Prius owner since 2000, Tesla M3 2018

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    First, coal isn't the main source of electricity in the US. It was >50% just 507 years ago (IIRC), but it has shrunk to 40% or less now. And shrinking more.

    The great thing about powering vehicles with electricity is that you DO NOT need to and SHOULDN'T design for today's grid. You are enabled by the versatility of possible electric sources to separate the car's design from the grid's design.

    Not really. How is using NG "clean" exactly? It is cleaner.

    I'm not against it. I'm just not for it. But I am against large government investment in it. Let the car companies do it. Sell fleet vehicles, even for government use, perhaps the post office, or buses. These make much more sense in that they have defined routes, limited need for lots of refueling sites, etc.

    Mike

    Note that it is a scientific blunder of major proportions to compare "efficiencies" of processes that are not identical or for processes that do not have the same inputs. Tell me how you compare well-to-wheel NG in a FCHV to a solar roof to BEV? The FCHV is 40% (according to the data above). But the Solar roof to BEV is, maybe, about 10% efficient.

    You have to be careful when you throw these efficiency numbers around, comparing them and multiplying them the way you are doing it. It does not make sense many times. Sure, two ICE cars, one if 25% efficient and one is 35%, it makes sense to compare. Another example is the Prius to EV comparison numbers above. 34% to 33%. But one is crude to wheels and the other is NG to wheels. The numbers are only telling one (in this case small) difference...how many theoretical BTUs get applied to the wheels from the total number you started with. What about NOx tailpipe emissions, CO2 produced, land use (misuse?) water use, etc. The Prius to ICE comparison is fair because they both start with crude. The FCHV to EV is fair because they both start with NG...but fails in that they are many different ways to generate electricity...such as nuclear and hydro (combined about 1/3 of US grid) that are much cleaner and coal (another 1/3+) which is dirtier.

    Mike
     
    #92 3PriusMike, Jun 30, 2014
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  13. Troy Heagy

    Troy Heagy Member

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    So where do I buy my first fuel cell Toyota or Honda or Hyundai or whatever?
    I want to capture the water in my bottle and recycle (drink) it while at work. (kidding)
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    tustin, carson, and hardin hyundai are the only dealerships in the US leasing new fcv right now. You need to apply, you can't simply lease one, you need to be selected. Honda and Toyota have not given a price, date, or which dealerships the cars will be available.
     
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