2001 shuttering to start, won't move in drive.

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by C Clay, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Key off- the kind of force that hurts your fingers grabbing it to turn. ImageUploadedByTapatalk1405890588.181900.jpg Should they key be on?
     
  2. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    It doesn't pop open, and it requires same force whether ignition is in ON or OFF position. It's clean. I mean all I've done is spray some bursts down in there, brush with a toothbrush- if there was any gunk it was below the plate only.
     
  3. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. When the Prius is IG-OFF, you should be able to rotate the throttle shaft easily with your hand. The spring does not exert that much force.
    2. When the Prius is READY you should not be able to rotate the throttle shaft as the motor should hold it in the position desired by the engine ECU. So if you actually can rotate it, there is something wrong - maybe the motor is slipping on the throttle shaft.
    3. I would say the spark plugs are in marginal condition: a) the rust around the porcelain shows that water had gotten into the spark plug wells at some point which would encourage a misfire. b) the tips show more carbon accumulation than I would deem normal for 15K miles and this implies the air/fuel mixture is rich.
     
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  4. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    What's the remedy if you can't rotate it easily?
     
  5. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Replace the throttle body assembly which includes the throttle motor. A failed assembly is likely the root of your engine's problems.

    Your post 36 says that the engine will run but the car will not move. Is the hybrid vehicle warning icon in the MFD still on?

    If yes, it is likely that your powertrain has more than engine problems. You would need to be able to retrieve the DTC logged by the hybrid vehicle and traction battery ECUs to get a clue about whether the failure is related to the transaxle, inverter, hybrid vehicle ECU itself, or who knows what.
     
    #45 Patrick Wong, Jul 20, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2014
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  6. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Update: I let it run rough for a few moments, while I cried in the front yard about how I have 6500 in this car. Then it ran some more.... Then some more.

    Now I have it running in the driveway for 15 minutes with the max air on and no codes....yet.

    I cleared codes and 3191 and 302 came back. I turned car off and then cleared codes and now it is running smooth with no codes....yet.

    This is a long post- but did I out on here I added 4 gallons of gas to the 2 bars we allready had on the gauge? I think that was a suggestion from someone here at home about bad gas or water in fuel.
     
  7. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    So now that the engine can run, what happens when you put the gear selector into D or R?
     
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  8. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Drove it in the driveway out of the street after 3 days
     
  9. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Just drove it around the neighborhood. Idles fine but drives very much like its misfiring but no codes yet.
     
  10. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    Don't worry, they'll come back. But it sounds like you need a decent device to retrieve them. Again, I highly recommend Mini VCI which emulates Toyota Techstream.
     
  11. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    This sent me back out to my car to check, and I was mistaken earlier when I wrote that the ECM would fight you in IG-ON. It only takes an active interest in throttle position when actually (as Patrick points out) READY.

    So the OP being able to turn the throttle with equal ease in IG-OFF or IG-ON is actually normal (or the same as my car, anyway, which isn't misbehaving). Now, if I actually start the engine and then try to turn the shaft, I can move it by a tiny hair, and then clearly feel the ECM saying "oh, no you don't!"

    I kind of agree with the OP's description of the spring force - it's not monstrous, but rather uncomfortable to hold in the open position for a length of time.

    So it seems to me the evidence here doesn't suggest any trouble with the throttle assembly.

    I'm still not super anxious about lacking the codes from the HV ECU. We know there's a misfiring engine, and the HV ECU will definitely log a problem if it can't get enough power from the engine, and I'm sure by reading its codes we'd see that - but that's a consequence of the problem we already know we have. I'd be comfortable with getting the engine running on all cylinders, and seeing what the HV ECU has to say then.

    I might be more cautious if there were any symptoms suggesting other, expensive, HV-related problems in addition to the engine misfire, and if the question were whether to fix the misfire or scrap the car. But that doesn't seem to be the case here, at least from what I've read.

    -Chap
     
  12. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Looking at the plugs in that photo, am I seeing things, or is one a bit more carbon-coated than the rest? That might happen if that cylinder is getting an extra-rich mixture. That could happen if that injector is leaking or flowing too much fuel for some reason. It could also happen if the other injectors are flowing too little, and that one isn't as bad ... because the ECM can only see oxygen readings and trim injector timing for the engine as a whole, so if it's getting too little fuel on average it will make all injection pulses longer including for the one that's not as bad, which will then be on the rich side.

    -Chap
     
  13. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Ladies and gentlemen- after running the car 2 hours I'm the proud parent of new code:

    P0172
     
  14. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    DTC P0172 means the air/fuel ratio is too rich, which some of your spark plugs show with their tips being excessively dark.

    From the 2G factory repair manual, here are likely causes. Of these, a bad injector or a dirty MAF sensor are the most likely:

    Injector leak, blockage
    Mass air flow meter
    Engine coolant temperature sensor
    Ignition system
    Fuel pressure
    Gas leakage in exhaust system
    Open or short in A/F sensor (bank 1, sensor 1) circuit (Classic has an oxygen sensor in the B1S1 position, not an air/fuel ratio sensor)
    A/F sensor (bank 1, sensor 1)
    A/F sensor heater
    EFI M relay (Classic relay is probably named something else)
    ECM
     
  15. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    I've bought a mass air flow sensor off eBay in April and kept the old one- I swapped them out- no difference in the drive. This is rust bucket from Cleveland Ohio, there is some exhaust rattle now, maybe related.
     
  16. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Using your ScanGauge you should be able to see the readings that the MAF and engine coolant temperature sensors are giving you, just to see if they seem reasonable. After sufficient time to warm up, when the upper radiator hose warm, the coolant reading should be around 82 to 85 Celsius. Also the fuel-trim reading using the XGAUGE definition from a couple posts up.

    You might try taking the MAF sensor out and spraying some MAF cleaner (only MAF cleaner, it's highly specialized stuff) on the sensing elements, one of which is hard to see buried inside a passage. It should only be touched by the spray of cleaner, no brushes, Q-tips, or any other foreign objects.

    I have this set of reconditioned original-equipment injectors available, if you're interested.

    -Chap
     
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  17. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    I haven't done the fuel trip reding, but the temp is 84 Celsius.

    Update- drove car twenty miles. We now have only codes:

    0300
    0301
    0304

    Back at it tommorrow. Thanks for all your help.
     
  18. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I would definitely limit any 20-mile trips in a car misfiring on two cylinders. The OEM catalytic converter is rather expensive to replace. Some people do find muffler shops to cut it and weld something else in, but if you can avoid melting it in the first place, you're money ahead.

    -Chap
     
  19. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    1. Have you inspected the spark igniters: looking for corrosion in the wiring harness connectors, and cracks or burn marks in the plastic? Moisten a paper towel with a solvent like paint thinner and wipe off the dirt on the igniter body. Each igniter should look like a new part after it is cleaned. If there are any physical flaws, replace the igniters.
    2. The iridium spark plugs don't look wonderful in your photos and I suggest you consider replacing them.
    3. Since you currently have misfire issues with cylinders 1 and 4: swap the igniter from cylinder 2 to cylinder 1 and vice versa. See if the misfire moves from P0301 to P0302. If yes, then you know the igniter is at fault and it should be replaced. Then do a similar drill with the cylinder 4 igniter.
    4. After taking care of 1-3 above which are easy issues to deal with, if you still are logging P030x codes then the fuel injectors probably need to be replaced. That will be more difficult because you have to relieve the fuel line pressure (by removing the circuit opening relay while the engine is running) and then remove the fuel rail when the Prius is IG-OFF. Hopefully you can do this without removing the engine valve cover - there should be sufficient play in the fuel rail line which runs through the loop in the valve cover. Make sure you use new rubber O-rings to seal the injectors when reinstalled, you don't want high pressure fuel spraying everywhere in the engine compartment.
     
    #59 Patrick Wong, Jul 21, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2014
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  20. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    I have seen plenty of misfire codes that occur because of the spark ignitors/coil packs. They can be relatively inexpensive (under $70) and not too hard too replace (under 30 minutes). Take a look on ebay.

    Sometimes a single ignitor is bad, but the problem caries over to the next cylinder in the sequence.

    You're very close to getting this in good running condition. Keep persevering!
     
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