2001 shuttering to start, won't move in drive.

Discussion in 'Generation 1 Prius Discussion' started by C Clay, Jul 18, 2014.

  1. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    UPDATE: the good folks at Greentec replaced battery and I intend on driving this 500 miles this week to see what develops. Gas mileage is good again (after taking unexplained 25% decrease), back at 44 mpg on a 70 mph trip (and I have the slightly wide custom tire and wheel- so I think this is good!) View attachment 70125

    Code p0420 reared its ugly head again not to be forgotten. Going to drive a little bit and see what develops.
     
  2. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Update: after driving months now this thing has had the same problem again. I believe that somehow water during heavy rains is entering the fuel tank. Today what I have is a shattering engine just like I originally had it with the only codes being 3190 and 3191.

    What's the best method to get that gas out of the tank?
     
  3. usnavystgc

    usnavystgc Die Hard DIYer and Ebike enthusiast.

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    Probably disconnect fuel line and let the pump, pump it out into a container.
     
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  4. ericbecky

    ericbecky Hybrid Battery Hero

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    More troubles? What a bummer.

    You can connect it up front, or if you can get to the underside of the car, you can actually disconnect it and drain it back at the tank sort of near the passenger rear tire. Just follow the lines.
     
  5. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Aha! Check for a couple other very recent threads about rust holes developing in the metal fuel filler neck up above the rear tire, where the tire throws water up during rainy driving. This seems to be a thing and we're discovering the age where it happens.

    Makes me want to go right out and check mine....

    -Chap
     
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  6. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Chap, I have a similar problem now to a thread you posted a couple of years back. Starts- run's 10 seconds...dies. So on your thread I saw were you disconnected the battery. I did that. Car runs for more than 10 seconds....but eventually dies. I start again and it will run until the middle red light (main battery?) goes off... then won't start at all. Then I disconnect battery again-- it will start, for maybe 20 seconds. I'm lost. I just want to drive it to a shop, but I don't think I can.
     
  7. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I think there is some sort of software-only "startless start syndrome" that our cars sometimes get into, sometimes after interrupting the 12 V supply, and then after another reboot they start just fine. That seems to have happened to me at least once, and to some others.

    But of course that doesn't mean you can ignore all the usual normal reasons for an engine not to start. If it hasn't fired up perfectly fine after a reboot, then quite possibly there's some real problem that needs fixed.

    Some posters have reported success getting the engine to run longer upon starting by shifting into N immediately after start. That's out of my experience and I've been skeptical (as I often am when I have no good mental model for why some idea should work), but I keep seeing posts about it.

    The usual big three reasons for an engine failing to start or stay started are spark, fuel, and compression. Sometimes you just have to draw those boxes on a piece of paper and start testing and checking them off.

    But keep an eye on your traction battery state of charge, because every start attempt will drop it some, and at a certain point you won't get any more attempts. Then the traction battery would need to be charged somehow, which I can at least say is more practical/affordable now because some companies are offering grid chargers for sale.

    You have a scangauge, right? What's the state of charge down to?

    So the name of the game is to plan your testing activities carefully so that you learn as much as you can within a tight budget of start attempts. I.e., each time you turn the key, you might want to have instrumented or changed one more thing so you get more information each time.

    Good luck!
    -Chap
     
  8. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    As soon as you hear the gasoline engine start, shift to N. If the engine continues to run, rev it up using the accelerator pedal. The point of doing the above is to confirm that the engine actually started.

    If the above does not work, then the engine didn't actually start and MG1 is just spinning the engine. Stop repeating this procedure because all you are doing is draining the traction battery. In that case it is time for you to seek professional assistance unless you want to end up buying a new traction battery plus fixing whatever is wrong with your car.
     
  9. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    By the way, have you followed up your earlier suspicion about water in the fuel? If there was, do you know that it's corrected?

    -Chap
     
  10. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Not really. This is in a college parking lot that has not a "suitcase campus"- even on weekends the parking lot is full. I can't get access to it (and don't feel comfortable trying to drain the tank. I tried to siphon it- no luck.) I did fill the tank with with fresh fuel however. I was thinking that would 'help' the situation.
     
  11. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    With the engine running.... I quickly switched to N. Then it died. Then I switched back to park. Then it started again for 2-3 seconds on its own.... then it died. Freaky
     
  12. Jeff F

    Jeff F Member

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    I'd max out on fuel conditioner/deicer/water remover in the tank before I went any further. Been there... water in the tank caused me problems several times, all caused by the rotten filler pipe.
     
  13. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    I don't think the gasoline engine actually had started, MG1 was just spinning it.

    Another way to prove/disprove that is if the engine responds to the accelerator pedal input or not. If not, then the engine had not started.
     
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  14. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Thanks Patrick- I'm with you. YES! The accelerator has NO effect. But wait- what is the MG1 and do you have a suggestion for getting to to run just to take somewhere. This so seems like it's not getting fuel.
     
  15. valde3

    valde3 Senior Member

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    MG1 is one (of two) motor generators in Prius transaxle. Toyota Prius - Power Split Device But in this case you can just think of it as starter motor. It uses hv-battery to spin the engine so don’t try to start it many times since you will empty and destroy hv-battery.

    Getting engine to run is same as fixing the problem so if you can do it then it’s already fixed.
     
  16. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    The transaxle contains two motor generators, MG1 and MG2. One of the jobs of MG1 is to spin the gasoline engine to get it to start.

    I really think you've done all that you could reasonably do. Now it is time to have a tow truck pick up the car and take it somewhere to be repaired. Good luck.
     
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  17. 3prongpaul

    3prongpaul Hybrid Shop Owner, worked on 100's of Prius's

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    Try bursting starting fluid into the throttle body while another person turns the key. Can you keep it running for a minute or so with bursting ?
     
  18. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    I was looking at another post Patrick where you indicated checking the 12V. My scangauge as I recall had the battery at 11.3v. That's really not the problem I bet..but just thought I would throw that in.
     
  19. C Clay

    C Clay Member

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    Still struggling here. Battery was dead after couple of weeks. I took a battery pack up there to charge it and it got to where I could start it- but it would only crank or turnover for a second or two. When I use my voltmeter my battery says 6.56. This optima battery is probably 3 years old now. Bob and Chap- if I replace this could it have any bearing on getting this thing started? At this point, I"m struggling to try and get it going to drive to a shop rather than have it towed 70 miles.
     
  20. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Be very careful. Yes, if your 12 volt battery is measuring 6.56 volts, you have a problem there, and you won't be able to find out what else is going on until you've done something about that. If you have even a small 12 volt battery charger, just hook it up and plug it in the wall. If you check that its output voltage doesn't exceed 14, and it doesn't complain that your battery is so trashed it shuts down, you could continue troubleshooting your car with this charger simply plugged into the wall the whole time.

    Now comes the part to be careful about. Every time you try to start your car, you drain some from the battery. This time I'm not talking about the 12 volt. The work of cranking your engine comes from the 274 volt battery. If you drain that, I'm betting you don't have that kind of charger handy, nor do they have one at your neighborhood car store, and your experiments will have come to an end.

    You mentioned having a scangauge. Have you programmed in the battery state-of-charge XGAUGE? What reading do you get for that, right now before making any more start attempts? (You probably will need to have straightened out the 12 volt situation before your scangauge can give you a reliable reading of the 274 volt state of charge.)

    -Chap
     
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