2005 Prius - P3190, P3191, P0A0F

Discussion in 'Gen 2 Prius Care, Maintenance and Troubleshooting' started by PixelShigoto, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. PixelShigoto

    PixelShigoto Junior Member

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    I’ve been having these problems for about 18 months now.

    My last post can be found at 2005 Prius - 12V battery keeps dying despite repairs/replacements | PriusChat

    Since I’m sick of going to the dealership every time this happens, I’m drawing from my scientific instrument repair experience and doing this myself. I figure if I could repair an x-ray photoelectron spectrometer and an HPLC then I could take a good stab at this. I bought myself a 12V battery recharger/tender/reconditioner and a Mini VCI cable with Techstream so I can read the codes myself.

    The most recent event happened in November and it took me until last weekend to get the Mini VCI cable to work (ultimately found out the wrong drivers were given to me). It’s not like I’m going anywhere these days so this project was able to be left on the backburner.



    November event:

    Problem: Gas engine cuts out (again). Luckily, I’m close to home and manage to limp back. When I try to restart the engine, it has a fast idle for about 15 seconds before dying again. I’m able to do this a few times but now it’s locked into only allowing me to switch between park and neutral. In retrospect, I might’ve just been cranking the engine and draining the hybrid battery but I can’t be sure.

    12V battery was found to be drained again. I put the recharger/tender on and brought it back up to spec. I found a 130 mA parasitic load on it – since I hadn’t driven for a couple weeks and the grocery store is only around the corner I guess that was enough to drain it.



    This past weekend I finally got Techstream to work and I used the software to grab the codes off of the car:

    Engine & ETC:
    Fig1 - Engine and ETC Live.png

    P3190 – Poor engine power

    P3191 – Engine does not start

    ===

    Hybrid Control:
    Fig2 - Hybrid Control.png

    P0A0F – Engine failed to start

    ===

    Thankfully, the HV battery doesn't report any codes:
    Fig3 - HV battery.png

    ===

    Under the P3191 code is a more detailed report giving the parameters that are off spec:
    Fig4 - Variable parameters.png

    I'd be grateful if any of you can help me understand what these off-spec parameters are pointing at as the issue.
    ===

    The last time I went in for this problem, they cited technical bulletin EG047-04 which instructed them to update the ECU so that the computer would allow the gas engine to crank some more before giving up.

    From what I recall, if that didn’t work then the next step would be to inspect the air intake and the throttle body.

    I opened up the air intake and took a pic of the throttle body. There’s definitely some residue but not as much as I’ve seen in other posts:
    Fig5 - Throttle.jpg
    ===


    I figure my next steps would be:
    1) Buy some cleaner to remove the residue on the throttle body
    2) Get a new engine air filter – there’s some crap in there, might as well
    3) Replace the 12V battery (optional? recommended?)

    Do you have any recommendations/thoughts about this problem I’ve been having?

    I’d like to keep this old friend of mine going for another couple years if I can. I’m not ready to let go yet I guess.
     
  2. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Generally, I don't think that some minor residue in the throttle body, or a bit of debris on an air filter, is going to be a reason for an engine no-start. Sometimes it's tempting to go change some parts because that's easy and doesn't require much thought, but really the no-start problem will probably not start to be solved until you start to do the traditional work of really confirming that fuel is getting to the engine, that sparks are getting to the fuel, and that the right compression is happening.

    As you have Techstream and can connect to the HV and battery ECUs, I would suggest, before much of anything else, using the Data List to see what the current battery State of Charge is. Every unsuccessful start attempt will reduce that a bit, and there does come a point where the car will say "nope, no more start attempts", and that then is a headache until you can obtain the services of an HV battery charger.
     
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  3. PixelShigoto

    PixelShigoto Junior Member

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    Acknowledged. I suppose I'll do as much as I can and document it the best I can before handing it off to the professionals then
     
  4. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    The car needs:

    Air
    Fuel
    Spark

    one of those isn't happening correctly or isn't being measured correctly

    make sure the throttle body butterfly is not stuck
     
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  5. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    I've never used the following link, but it should contain *everything* you need : Service Manuals - Google Drive

    It would be great if someone could extract the manuals from Gdrive and back them up on http://mega.nz/ as well.

    If the HV battery is already depleted, you will need a LED power supply, or a grid charger like Prolong, maxxvolts, etc.

    As mentioned, use MAF spray on the MAF, then vodka (or a solvent) and an old toothbrush on the throttle body / butterfly.

    Have you tried using starting fluid to keep the engine running, which would also allow you to force charge the HV battery.
     
  6. strawbrad

    strawbrad http://minnesotahybridbatteries.com

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    +1

    A shot of starting fluid will confirm or eliminate fuel as the problem.
     
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  7. PixelShigoto

    PixelShigoto Junior Member

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    I got a better look at the MAF and it was dirty. I removed and cleaned it with some MAF cleaning spray and help from YouTube university.

    The throttle plate had some varnish on it and I cleaned that as best I could with some carb cleaner and a cleaning cloth taped to a screwdriver. I also checked the movement of the valve and it didn’t feel stuck at all.

    Fig2-1 - Dirty MAF and throttle.png PXL_20210315_193932808.jpg
    I did notice that I could see oil past the throttle - is this normal?

    I used TechStream to clear the codes and fired up the engine. It ran but only for about 11 seconds.

    I grabbed the codes and I still have P3190 (Poor engine power) and P0A0F (Engine failed to start) on there. I took screenshots of the details.

    Fig2-2 - P3190 details.png Fig2-3 - P0A0F-204 details.png

    I finally gave in and had it towed in for service.

    The tech called me back and said that there’s no pressure delivering fuel to the engine. Getting to the fuel delivery system is labor intensive and would cost about $500 to confirm the diagnosis.

    Apparently for this model the fuel pump and gas tank come together as a unit and bottom line cost including labor would be nearing $2000.
     
    #7 PixelShigoto, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  8. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Yes.
    The engine did not start. It was merely being turned over by the electric motor, hence your codes.
    This is the correct information for the North American Market Gen 2 Prius if indeed the fuel pump has failed. Presumably, to reach that conclusion, the mechanic would have run a test to confirm the fuel pump did not run with 12V directly connected to it and that 12V is at the connector to the fuel pump.
     
    #8 dolj, Mar 31, 2021
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2021
  9. PixelShigoto

    PixelShigoto Junior Member

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    Thank you for your insights! That was very helpful.

    My family is pushing to have me take the car to an independent mechanic they all go to who said he could get the part for $700 and do the labor for $200, so $900 + tax. The shop is 80 miles away though, but AAA says they'd cover the tow. I don't know what the warranty on the work would be like or if they're even Prius-certified - I'll ask when I call them tomorrow.

    As much as I'd love to keep my Prius I just don't know if I can trust it after stalling out on me 4 times in a year. It's shaken my confidence and now I don't know if I could, say, take my wife to the doctor or dog to the vet if an emergency happens. I gotta consider if I should do a trade in and get a Prius Prime or an EV from another company.
     
  10. dolj

    dolj Senior Member

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    Four incidents likely all attributable to the fuel pump (and that is 3 more than you should have had). Why would the car be unreliable once it is repaired?

    It sounds like you are looking for an excuse for a monthly car payment.
     
  11. SFO

    SFO Senior Member

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    500 is excessive for a no fuel diagnosis, and again for a thee hour repair at 2k. The other mechanic at 900 would be best, if a new tank is even needed, might try a used tank for 100 or less. Mentioned a couple of times above, if one can spray starting fluid into the intake and the engine continues to run, then you have a fuel problem. Then inspect the appropriate fuse(s), fuel relay and or fuel pump.

    One can observe fuel delivery by disconnecting the fuel line from the fuel rail, which would confirm if the fuel relay/pump is working.

    Test the fuel relay, and check for 12v at the fuel pump before replacing the tank. At 97k on a 2005, consider a low mileage used tank.
     
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