2007 Model Alignment issues

what does the manufacturers base warranty or platinuum warranty
say about allignments? are the free allignments only done at 5000 or 10000 miles?

is this it?

i took my priius into for 10k miles and asked about the allignment and they gave me a free one.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rigormortis @ Jun 28 2007, 02:59 PM) [snapback]469677[/snapback]</div>

The printout is a listing of your settings efore anything was changed, the allowable range for each element (toe, camber, etc.) of the alignment specification and the final as adjusted settings.

Your right rear toe and both front toe settings were off before the alignment.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rigormortis @ Jun 28 2007, 04:59 PM) [snapback]469677[/snapback]</div>

I didn't notice anything in the warranty about it, but like you, I just figured it couldn't hurt to ask, and they did it free of charge. I think whether it's in writing or not, it's good PR to fix problems that spring up that fast.

What might help even more is dealers checking the alignment of shipped cars before they sell...

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(rigormortis @ Jun 28 2007, 02:59 PM) [snapback]469677[/snapback]</div>

I don't suppose you know how they were able to correct the toe on the rear axle?

Your print out is interesting to me for two reasons:

1. Your right rear wheel was out just like mine is. It looks like whatever they did to fix it increased the toe on the left rear and decreased it on the right rear. Your final readings are good because you have almost the same camber and toe on both sides which is what it should have been originally.

2. There is a note at the bottom of your printout that notes tire wear, handling and safety problems may result from alignment out of spec. That statement didn't appear on my printout that the dealer gave me. :blink:

 

dogfriend, are they going to be doing another alignment? if so, tell them you want toe in degrees. and no, not degrees and minutes. x.xx degrees. that format.

that's a deceptive measure right there, only using inches for toe values...

if you can get those numbers, printed out, we can send some custom shims your way. replacing the rear axle has only made it worse in the cases we've seen. search for tumbleweed's posts, he had his done too and it was apparently pretty bad afterward.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jun 29 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]470440[/snapback]</div>

As it stands right now, I'm supposed to take it back in next week so they can install a different camber bolt in the LH front to correct that issue. They are supposed to align it after installing the new camber bolt.

I'm going to let them try that, but I'm a bit skeptical because I kept getting different answers every time I asked about the rear toe problem. Plus, the tire shop data was a lot different on the rear camber, and I'm wondering if the dealer might be manipulating it to make the problem not seem as bad. At the tire shop, they used a Hunter machine and I saw my car up on the machine, so I know they measured it. At the dealer, I never was able to see what they did and they could have stuck a different car on the machine for all I know.

I''m going to let them make a good faith effort to fix it since its a new car.

Does anyone have any insight on how this might be happening? I can't imagine that Toyota lets them out of the factory with bad alignment (Statistical Process Control, Continuous Improvement, yada yada). My personal speculation is that some of the cars are getting damaged by the transport truck from the port to the dealer. Maybe just the ones in the back (or the front, IDK) where they can't secure them using the normal tie down points; no harm just using the axle on this one, its much easier/faster.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jun 29 2007, 07:45 PM) [snapback]470440[/snapback]</div>

The camber bolt made it to the dealer while we were on our trip to Oregon. So, I called and made an appointment for today. I dropped the car off this morning.

Conversation between me and SW:

Me: I noticed that the other measurements are in degrees, but the toe-in is given in inches. Could you have the machine print out the toe-in in degrees also?

Him: No.

Me: Really? (with voice inflection to let him know that I don't believe him)

Him: (silence) (he continues to type in the information on the service order)

Since the only thing I could think of to say next was "You're a f*cking liar", and I'm not prepared to go there yet, I just dropped it.

I will see what they have to say this afternoon when I go to pick it up.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Jul 3 2007, 12:26 PM) [snapback]472432[/snapback]</div>

I don't know about your patience level, but, based on what you have described about the SW, I am tending to doubt their competence when it comes to doing alignments. I guess I would see what the outcome is like this afternoon and if it is still not solved, if it were me, I would take the car to an alignment shop and bring them the shims necessary from the dealer's parts dept.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jul 3 2007, 12:35 PM) [snapback]472441[/snapback]</div>

I agree with you, but the problem is that there is no "official" alignment shim for the rear as far as I can tell. The service manual says that camber and toe-in are not adjustable on the rear and it says if either are out of spec, you should check for damaged or worn parts to repair the problem. Since I had this issue from the beginning, the possibilities are:

1. Car was built with parts out of spec originally, or

2. Car was damaged sometime after leaving the factory.

Galaxee (and one other Priuschat member) have graciously offered to send me custom shims to solve the issue, but my problem is that a. the dealer info is not adequate to determine the shim thickness to correct, and b. the data from the Hunter alignment machine (at the Goodyear tire shop) isn't either and is quite a bit different from the data from the dealer machine. So, I don't know which one is "more correct".

One other issue, not being an alignment tech, but using my Mechanical Engineering degree and the Internets, I have been reading up on 4 wheel alignment and what the different measurements mean. At least one of the documents suggests that to perform an alignment on a front wheel drive vehicle, you should first align the rear and then align the front after the rear is in spec. Makes sense to me, but what do I know. My dealer is trying to do it the other way around.

 

you never know what shipping is gonna do to your alignment, unfortunately.

yes, with a front wheel drive vehicle you do the rear first and then the front because the weight is in the front. but given that the books say the rear isn't adjustable, they just go for the front and leave it at that.

he's really amused by the lack of response from your writer... the machine allows you to change the data displayed. the only people who use inches anymore are the big diesel people (ie, kenworth, freightliner, etc) but people who work with cars deal in degrees.

so, your dealer is ***king you around, basically.

the goodyear shop is just as bad! Wth! everything else in degrees, except for toe.

without a measurement in degrees, it's hard for him to really figure how many shims you need. in degrees, he can do it in his head in a second. he doesn't deal with inches measurements because, well, nobody else does either.

 

I must be psychic.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Jun 22 2007, 10:51 PM) [snapback]466764[/snapback]</div>

So, SW leaves me a message at work, the car is ready for pickup. I barely make it before closing, so I go directly to the cashier. I get the paperwork and it states that they installed the camber bolt and adjusted the front toe. There are two printouts attached:


[attachmentid=9414]


[attachmentid=9415]

Careful readers will note that on the second printout, the rear axle is now in spec. In fact, its perfect, it could not be any better. :wacko:

So, of course I'm now quite interested to know how this miracle occurred.

Me: Hey, I noticed that rear axle is now in spec. In fact, its perfect. How did you fix it?

SW: Yeah, I had them put it on the machine again. We wanted it to be perfect.

Me: So did you adjust anything?

SW: No, we noticed it was out of spec, so I had them put it back on the machine.

Me: So, you didn't do anything except put it on the machine again. The toe in was pretty far out, 3/16 in is quite a bit.

SW: No, 3/16 isn't much at all.

Me: I guess I will know after driving it.

So, I'm going to drive it for a few days and look around for a good alignment shop. It still seems to be pulling to the left slightly when slowing down to a stop, even when the road surface is slightly sloped the other direction.

 

[smacks hand against forehead]

omfg. look for a shop that uses hunter dsp600 machines and measures their toe in decimal degrees. these guys would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 3 2007, 10:24 PM) [snapback]472781[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, even though the thing I hate more than anything else is when someone wastes my time, I do find it amusing in a weird sort of way. That's probably the last time we will bring either of our Toyotas to the dealership. I was taking the GF's Avalon in for Oil Changes, but after the substandard job they did on my Prius, I've decided to do both cars myself.

Just out of curiosity, do most of the dealers have the same alignment equipment? What is the accuracy of the measurement for camber? From the three different printouts, it appears that most of the measurements agree within 0.1 or 0.2°, but on the last rear camber measurement, the camber changed by 0.3° on the RR to match the reading on the LR.

Its also easy to see that the front toe measurement is BS because on 6/22 the toe was reported as 0 inches on both sides and the total toe was also 0 inches. 0 + 0 = 0.

But today 0 + 0 = -1/16 inch. So the accuracy of the measurement is 1/32 inch or worse.

 

the machines are very accurate, and all the dealerships are supposed to have the same equipment.

don't put any stock whatsoever into that last alignment, it's clearly been fudged.

the 0+0 not equalling 0 is a result of the machine averaging since it can only measure in the very rough 1/16" increments. a few hundredths of a degree can make a notable difference, and the use of inches for toe is basically used to get the machine to display numbers that look nice.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 4 2007, 09:48 AM) [snapback]472923[/snapback]</div>

Yes. I predicted that would happen last week. I was hoping that I would be wrong, that they would actually want to fix my car instead of fudging the data.

What's the motivation on the part of the SW to do that? They do get paid for warranty work, right? Is it a case where they don't get paid as much for the job?

I should add that everyone in the service dept has been very pleasant, even the SW when he was lying to my face. So they obviously care somewhat about customer service. They even include a postcard for comments with the paperwork. But they don't want to fix my car.

Yes, that's what I was trying to point out above, but didn't do a very good job at expressing it. The increments of measurement are at least 1/32 of an inch. So they report that the toe is 0 on each side, but its toed out about 1/32 each side or it really is 0 on one side and toed out 1/16 on the other or some combination in between those two extremes.

I was looking for an alignment shop that has the Hunter DSP610 equipment that you suggested above. I found some photos showing the setup. The Goodyear tire shop used this type of machine, but unfortunately they didn't report the toe-in in decimal degrees. I am also not sure they knew what they were doing either; they had to call for outside help to determine if they were "using the right program for my car".

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Jul 4 2007, 01:20 PM) [snapback]473072[/snapback]</div>

I think I anticipated the outcome as well. The dealer just doesn't do the same volume of alignment business that a dedicated alignment shop will do. Here is a thought for getting a quality alignment shop: call up the Hunter factory (or e-mail them) and explain that you are trying to get a particularly sticky alignment problem resolved. Get the name and phone number of the distributor in your area. Call the distributor and explain your problem and ask which of the shops that they sell into would they trust to solve the problem you are experiencing. Take the car to that shop and work with them to get the problem resolved (even if you have to pay galaxee to send a custom shim out to them). I used this approach to get resolution on an alignment problem 10 years ago and it worked for me.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Jul 4 2007, 01:20 PM) [snapback]473072[/snapback]</div>

Your last comment was on point. Toyota pays the dealer approximately 60% of what the dealer can get at retail.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(apriusfan @ Jul 4 2007, 01:36 PM) [snapback]473085[/snapback]</div>

Yes, my next plan is to identify a good shop in the Sac area and get an honest measurement. Then I will probably install the rear shim(s) myself. My thought is that the shop may be hesitant because its not an "approved" repair procedure. After installing the shim, I will take it back to verify the alignment.

Initially, my thought was to get the dealer to repair it per the factory approved method, but now after reading about the axle replacement making the problem worse in at least one case, I think that the shim may be the best way to solve the issue.

 

warranty alignments pay good money, actually... it's one of the ONLY things that warranty pays decent for. DH LOVES a warranty alignment.

trouble is, they don't know Wth they're doing on the rear alignment. nobody does, really, because technically they're not adjustable. and they do want to make you happy, they just have no idea how. so they fudge the numbers because that's all they know how to do at this point.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(galaxee @ Jul 4 2007, 02:19 PM) [snapback]473117[/snapback]</div>

I wonder if/when Toyota will address this? I'm not the only one with this issue, I have found other posts on this board and others. It is probably a relatively low percentage of total owners, but it is a verifiable problem; it can be measured, so its not like its somebody's imagination (which is what the service tech implied with his comments on the work order).

Also, it would be interesting to know why Toyota engineers decided that it should be a non-adjustable feature. Cost? Simplicity? Every thing works in theory, in reality it doesn't.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dogfriend @ Jul 4 2007, 03:05 PM) [snapback]473141[/snapback]</div>

Most likely suspect is cost and related to cost, simplicity as a means of achieving the cost objective. Afterall, Toyota is in business to make a profit.