2010 ABS recall - problem occuring post "fix"

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Main Forum' started by 2010PriusOwner2019, Sep 18, 2019.

  1. 2010PriusOwner2019

    2010PriusOwner2019 New Member

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    I own one of the 2010 Prius cars that was covered by that recall. However my car is still accelerating very occasionally when I brake. Because it it periodic, the dealership tech who currently has my car has been unable to replicate the problem. I imagine that this may be happening to other 2010 Prius owners. I think the software patch didn't successfully correct the original problem that prompted the recall. I want to find out if this is happening to other owners?

    I think there is a story here and hopefully a second recall because this is a liability issue. I cannot drive a car that might accelerate when I brake. I can't sell it in good faith. I can't even get it repaired b/c to date they haven't experienced the issues first hand. But the issue is real and deserves attention because this is about safety and liability.
     
  2. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    welcome!

    can you describe the symptoms in more detail? does it happen when going over a rough surface?

    and/or around 6mph?
     
  3. 2010PriusOwner2019

    2010PriusOwner2019 New Member

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    I know the original recall concerns were about bumpy surfaces. I didn't notice that detail so I'm not sure. I do not believe it was at 6mph but it's possible. I know two of the recent times I was slowing down to make a turn.
     
  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    try to be more aware in the future and make notes od speed and road surface. the traction control is not perfect over rough surfaces/potholes/manholes what have you, and the transition from region to full friction braking is especially sensitive, even after the recall.

    this has been an ongoing characteristic since at least 2004, so i don't think we'll be seeing another recall.

    but yours may have a more serious problem that can't be diagnosed over the internet, and needs to be looked at by a professional.
    you may want to look for a used prius for sale that you can test drive and compare.
     
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  5. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk 'Orrible Oracle

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    I had a recall for possible "brake booster pump assembly", dated August 2013. The reference number (through Toyota Canada) was SOSH-966-1A. The description mentions a plunger, metal-pleated bellows and nitrogen gas. The concern was that the bellows could start to leak.

    There was no software update involved with that, as far as I know.

    There have been a couple software update recalls, both relating to the inverter.

    I've never had a recall for the ABS (Antilock Braking System), or unexpected acceleration.
     
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  6. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    There's a very well-known aspect of driving a Prius, any Prius back to the first generation, where a feeling that's like "acceleration", even though it isn't, can startle you if you're not used to it, when a switch from regen to friction braking gets triggered abruptly by road conditions. (The transition that always happens around 6 mph is usually much less noticeable, because it's perfectly predictable and the car gets to plan a smooth transition ahead.)

    Some early 2010s had an extra-pronounced version of that behavior, more than what every other Prius driver is used to, and for that extra-pronounced behavior there was a recall, A0B. It would update the brake firmware to F152647106 (if the car has 15" wheels) or F152647126 (if 17" wheels). That would take care of the peculiar 2010 exaggerated handoff behavior, making it like other Prii. It did not turn the car into a non-Prius.

    By this time, a 2010 might also have been updated further, to F152647108 / F152647128, for reducing some honking/barking noises.

    If the behavior you're talking about is some actual acceleration or something that occurs under other circumstances, then it's possible there is some problem with your car that still needs to be looked at. But if it could be that you're just noticing the typical abrupt-handoff feeling and thinking of it as "acceleration", then it's normal, and you can sell the car in good faith if you'd prefer something else.
     
  7. JackTheNarrator

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    Read court judgement attached (pg 4)
    Read explanation and data attached (pg 2)
    Read EDR ("black box") (pg 13)


    November 2, 2016 NHTSA ID NUMBER: 10923921
    Components: AIR BAGS, SERVICE BRAKES, SEAT BELTS

    NHTSA ID Number: 10923921

    Incident Date October 17, 2016

    Consumer Location TUCSON, AZ

    Vehicle Identification Number JTDKN3DP4D3****

    Summary of Complaint

    CRASHYes

    FIRENo

    INJURIES1

    DEATHS0

    I WAS DRIVING STRAIGHT ON A CITY ROAD WITH THE FLOW OF HEAVY TRAFFIC AT ABOUT 40 MILES PER HOUR WHEN THE CAR IN FRONT OF ME CAME TO A SUDDEN STOP. I IMMEDIATELY SLAMMED ON MY BRAKES VERY HARD. AT THE TIME I DID THIS I HAD PLENTY OF SAFE DISTANCE BETWEEN US. BUT, THE BRAKES NEVER CAME ON AND I ENDED UP RUNNING INTO THE REAR END OF AN SUV AT APPARENTLY FULL SPEED WITHOUT ANY NOTICEABLE SLOWDOWN. THE BRAKES DID NOT COME ON. THEY DIDN'T GRAB, AND THEY DIDN'T MAKE ANY SCREECHING NOISE AND THERE WERE NO TIRE MARKS ON THE ROAD. ALSO ALL OF THE AIRBAGS DEPLOYED AND THIS WAS A FRONTAL IMPACT, WHICH WAS VERY SURPRISING AND SUFFOCATING. A CLOUD OF DUST FILLED THE CABIN OF THE CAR AND I COULD NOT BREATHE. I WAS LITERALLY SUFFOCATING UNTIL I WAS ABLE TO OPEN THE DOOR AND GET OUT OF THE VEHICLE. I DIDN'T EVEN FEEL THE SEAT BELT TIGHTEN UP BEFORE THE CRASH. THE BRAKES NEVER FELT LIKE THEY CAME ON AT ALL. *TR *JS

    1 Affected Product
    2 Associated Documents
    Request Research (Services fees apply)
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. Elektroingenieur

    Elektroingenieur Senior Member

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    After Roger Hogan won his lawsuit, I thought we’d heard the last from @JackTheNarrator. Welcome back!

    Like many people who have read the sad story of Task X (PDF), I’m glad to see Toyota criticized for the quality of their software, when they deserve it, but I can’t agree that the NHTSA complaint kindly shared in post #7 demonstrates a design or manufacturing defect in the Prius braking system.

    The readout from the event data recorder shows the state of the stop light switch assembly, labeled “Service Brake, ON/OFF,” but the Toyota 12EDR installed in the subject vehicle is not designed to record the position of the brake pedal, as might have been measured by the brake pedal stroke sensor, nor the regenerative braking request or operation torques, nor the regenerative cooperation status. (See Webster, G., et al., “Accuracy of Recorded Driver Inputs in Toyota Part 563 EDR,” SAE Technical Paper 2014-01-0505, 2014.)

    We simply don’t have objective evidence of what the complainant’s car was (or was not) asked to do, in terms of braking. It could have been that the complainant pressed the brake pedal only far enough to actuate the stop light switch, but not far enough to cause actual braking, regenerative or hydraulic, until some time between 1.15 and 0.65 seconds before the collision, when the hydraulic brakes were fully applied.
    You might consider using a Toyota Techstream diagnostic system to make a continual record of braking-related parameters from the car—ideally, the complete ABS/VSC/TRAC data list—while it exhibits the behavior in question. We usually think of Techstream as a tool to retrieve diagnostic trouble codes and other information from a parked vehicle, but it also has a recording feature that can be used while the car is running. In the Techstream online help, see the topics “Recording,” “Snapshot,” “Trigger Setting,“ and “Saving,” all under the “Diagnostics Functions” heading. You’d want to have a second person operate the system, or set it up not to require attention from the driver, and keep the interface cable well clear of the pedals, of course.

    With a recording like this, your dealer or Toyota might be able to explain the behavior you have noticed. If there is a defect in the software, having a record of what happened, from the skid control ECU’s perspective, would be valuable evidence. Even if everything is normal, we’d all learn something about regenerative braking cooperative control and how it interacts with other functions of the braking system.
     
  9. 2010PriusOwner2019

    2010PriusOwner2019 New Member

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    Thank you for these details. I have been driving the car daily for three years and this problem is relatively new this year, happening a couple of times per month for the last approx 3 months. I have not yet isolated a predictable pattern but the two most recent times were both when I was braking before making a turn. I can't imagine I could have been going 6 mph just to turn when the speed limit was otherwise around 40. This phenomenon is definitely not just the normal feel of driving a prius, based on my baseline experience the past three years minus the past few months. What happens is I put my foot on the brake and the car instead of braking jolts forward on its own which is why I'm using the term acceleration. My concern is if I were to resume driving the car and the off chance this occurs when lets say children are in a crosswalk in front of me. I will bring these helpful details to the dealership who has had my car for a week and reports they have yet to experience the issue described and therefor have to date concluded my car is "fine." Thank you again for all of these detailed responses.
     
  10. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    Not to get too distracted by that ... 6 mph or so is where the car normally and always hands off from regen to friction, and usually without a noticeable handoff effect, because it is extremely predictable and the car is able to plan ahead for it and transition smoothly.

    If you're ever going to notice the handoff effect in a Prius, you are much more likely to notice it during light/moderate braking at some higher speed, where the car would normally have no reason to hand off from regen to friction, but some road irregularity triggers an abrupt change of plan.

    I don't have enough information to say whether you're experiencing that, but it is a very common topic of Prius conversation around here, and often is perceived as brief "acceleration" by people noticing it the first time, though it's really a momentary dip in the rate of braking.
     
  11. 2010PriusOwner2019

    2010PriusOwner2019 New Member

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    Thank you for this. I will certainly consider the experience from that perspective as a possibility.
     
  12. JackTheNarrator

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    Elektro>>>>>
    search: dezinformatsiya
    "disinformation is deliberate falsehood promulgated by design"
    search: ZG1, ZJB, E0U, DOH, ZE1, ZKC, ZKK, KOL
    C1391, C1256, U0293
     
    #12 JackTheNarrator, Sep 28, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2019
  13. ChapmanF

    ChapmanF Senior Member

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    I was just thinking to myself, if only Elektro could be encouraged to do more research, and post less untethered speculation ....
     
  14. Tha_Ape

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    I had that same recall done in 2013... last week I flushed my brake fluid and found out the right front calipers bleeder screw was cross threaded.... too bad I found out 6yrs too late. No way to prove it was them other than me knowing I never bled the brakes.

    I didn't mess with it and just didn't flush that caliper. Wasnt 100% positive I'd get the brakes back together in time and didn't have a spare caliper handy. I never had an issue, was just doing preventative maintenance, but I know I'll need a new caliper some time in the future!
     
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