2011 Prius - Windshield triples light source images

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by srevelation, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. rsb97080

    rsb97080 New Member

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    Oh definitely. After this experience I'll never do a daytime test drive again.
     
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  2. cooljw

    cooljw Member

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    Wow surprised they even tried a fourth time. The more times they try to fix it and fail the stronger it makes your case.

    With me 3 times was enough then they offered to buy my car back.
     
  3. rsb97080

    rsb97080 New Member

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    What I found amazing was that when I went to the dealer to pick it up, I asked if this windshield was finally the one that was problem free. The service advisor said in a rather snotty tone, "I do not know. I didn't personally look at it." What? The work was done on your watch and you didn't check it?
    The Lemon Law in this state is 'four strikes, you're out.' So I expect some sort of resolution sooner now rather than later.
     
  4. MarcSmith

    MarcSmith Active Member

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    one thing I noticed tonight. I was using my phone in HUD mode with torque. in the lower section of the windshield I was seeing multiple images, but on the upper section where I have my tint strip, I was only seeing a single image... so I wonder. was it the tint strip stopping the multiple image, or are all the windows set up to help reflect the HUD and the triple image of relights is a by-product????
     
  5. phvdriv3r

    phvdriv3r Defender of the Glass - Lemon-ed a 2012 PHV

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    That's probably your particular windshield. In my case, the refraction was constant across the entire windshield, worse in some places. On the replacement (which led to the buyback of the car), the refraction occurred in the upper 1/2 of the windshield, nowhere near where the HUD would have been if my PIP had it. Remember, this issue is inconsistent across any Prius and even among other makes/models. This is related to a manufacturing issue and not tied to HUD. The HUD does not require a special layer/coating/etc to reflect the light to your eyes from the windshield.
     
  6. pwrstick

    pwrstick Junior Member

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    Well I'm pretty torqued right now. The dealer I was working with told me the following:
    Any thoughts/suggestions on how to move forward?
     
  7. phvdriv3r

    phvdriv3r Defender of the Glass - Lemon-ed a 2012 PHV

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    Have you opened a case with Toyota (not just the dealer)? Have you filed a complaint with NHTSA yet? Have you had any repair attempts or inspections where you had the "attempt" documented? Sounds like you need to lawyer up in this case - if its not a lemon law case, its definitely a breach of contract as Toyota is obligated to repair that defect. Contact Toyota at their 800 number and get it escalated - they should have had someone contact you from the regional office regarding this - I would not rely on the dealership. This is NOT a normal characteristic of the vehicle - this is BS rhetoric they're spinning to avoid repairing or refunding the price of the vehicle. Stand firm, this is just a stupid tactic they're using here. Make sure you document everything they are telling you, as it can be used against them in arbitration or court.
     
  8. pwrstick

    pwrstick Junior Member

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    Yes.
    Yes.
    Other than this dealership no, since they've refused to do repairs. However they have, in my service case notes, noted that they have seen the defect. I.e. it's been confirmed by a service tech. Maybe I should try another dealer?
    I'm starting to think about a lawyer. And I guess I can call back and lean on the 800 number people. However they informed me that it was up to the district manager to make a call, by way of the service center I was working with. They will not release the name of the DM (though I'm starting to look on LinkedIn ;) )
    I agree with you! I'm honestly a little stunned by how the issues is being treated, especially with so many people here having more luck.

    This is my second Prius. It's hard not to start hating this car because of this issue and the way it's being treated. Trust me I know that sounds dramatic, but I have this nagging reminder every time I look through my windshield.

    Also I appreciate your thoughts on this. Cheers.
     
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  9. phvdriv3r

    phvdriv3r Defender of the Glass - Lemon-ed a 2012 PHV

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    The plug-in I had was my 2nd as well. Both were gen3 and my first had no windshield issues so it was very annoying, especially with how bad my windshield was. I really wish they would work with the company responsible (AGC) to get this worked out, or at least get the DOT to establish a refractive index rule as the problem exists on more cars now than before.

    As for the DM having the final say, that is most likely not true from Toyota's side. See if you can push for an escalation and move it up the ranks. There is plenty of info here available from others that have had to have a replacement installed or have their car lemon'd - just keep pushing. Don't go the arbitration route, whatever you do - pursue legal advice from a lemon law lawyer - they'll take the case with no fees - this should be a simple breach of contract case at this point.
     
  10. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    Good Luck.
    My sad experience with Toyota Customer Care---is that they do indeed use the DM's opinion as "Their" final word.

    Once it is given, whatever the statement is, all you'll get is a parroting of that same statement over and over, and Toyota will offer no avenue for additional escalation.

    Perhaps if YOU force escalation in the form of hiring a lawyer, it might all change.

    Again Good Luck.

    I don't have the windshield problem but I think the statement that an admitted identifiable defect, isn't a defect because other Prius also have that defect...is ridiculous. Especially on something as directly safety related as visibility out a windshield.

    Also seems ridiculous that they would admit to the problem to the extent of replacing the windshield "once"...but then caveat it all with they can't guarantee resolution BUT will only replace it once.

    If it's a defect, and you are trying to fix it..FIX IT...whether it takes 1 try or 50.
     
  11. cooljw

    cooljw Member

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    What phvdruv3r says is right. You need to force the issue with the right audience. The dealer is not the right audience. Need to get straight to corporate - and the right people at corporate. Use a lawyer or write your own letter first. Opening a case on the 800 number does nothing - the phone reps are just robots. Sadly it can take a lot of threats to get the right folks' attention.

    I never had to hire a lawyer, but had to push a plenty. In the end Toyota did the right thing.

    Now I have an electric RAV4. I plan to get the next gen PiP too if they increase the EV range, and after I've made sure the windshield is OK!
     
  12. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    I think on something, simple, cheap or basic....Toyota Customer Care can work. But if it get's complicated or expensive, and definitely once you get the "dead end" answer from the fabled District Manager, then it's all over.

    The illusion is that Toyota "Customer Care" is there to back you the customer. When in my experience Toyota Customer Care is mostly an entity designed to back the dealerships, and make sure Toyota is only covering the minimum amount of anything they might need to cover.

    I use to believe Toyota was more inclined to back their customers, maybe to a fault. Sadly that hasn't been my experience with The Prius.
     
  13. rsb97080

    rsb97080 New Member

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    Lemon laws are in place for a reason. Use it!
     
  14. M.C. Ainsworth

    M.C. Ainsworth Junior Member

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    Figured I'd tag this older thread. I just bought a CPO 2013 P3 with 17k over black Friday weekend, while out at my sisters house for Thanksgiving. My 190mile drive home, I had huge headaches and watery eyes from my unconscious straining to fix the optical artifacts in the windshield. At first I figured I was just tired, but the past two nights, I continue to see these, and it is indeed causing issues with my nighttime driving ability. The artifacts are plainly visible to not only me, but any passengers I've had in the car as well. It is a windshield thing, as there are no artifacts when viewing the same lights through any other window. Most cars have three sets of brake lights...above, real, and below. Oh wow its a pain in the butt. I'm curious my the optics are better in the day though...*shrugs*

    I intend on having a conversation with the selling dealer, as well as my local dealer about this. AFAIK, there are no "lemon laws" on the books in FL..so I guess we'll see whats up.
     
  15. srevelation

    srevelation Junior Member

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    Yes, that is exactly what we see through the windshield. Sorry to hear that the 2013 still has this glass/effect. Over the past 3 years, I've gotten more used to it. I mostly need to make sure the inside stays clean (no film) otherwise headlights tend to flare and sometimes hard to see the road ahead until the car passes.
     
  16. xPETEx

    xPETEx Junior Member

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    I just don't drive the Prius at night since I have two other vehicles. I learned an important lesson through this experience to only purchase a car after an extended test drive that includes night driving. I love everything else about the Prius including the excellent Toyota customer service so I intend the keep the car. But it is completely undriveable at night for me.


    iPhone ?
     
  17. RavenTBK

    RavenTBK Junior Member

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    Figured I'd update. I have asked several dealerships around my area and plenty of other Prius owners, and nobody has ever heard about this problem.

    I ended up going back to my local dealership (not where I purchased the car), and kidnapped the service manager right before they closed up. It took about a mile of driving at dusk, and a bit of explaining what to look for but sure enough he started to see my complaint with his own eyes. When we got back, he said he'd look into the issue, to see what he can do (some reason it wouldnt be covered under 3/36 but rather the CPO extended warranty).

    The sales floor was still open, so I grabbed a random salesman, and had him open up a couple of on-the-lot Pirii for me to peek through. Sure enough, none of them had the problem. I then "kidnapped" the salesman, and had him sit in my drivers seat and look at the streetlights of the Mercedes lot across the road. My explanations of my issue were drawing blank responses from the sales guy, but we quickly got our language straight. I had him look at the lights through the windshield, then tilt his head and look at the same lights through the closed window on the opened drivers door and compare. He picked up on the reflections much faster than the service manager did, and actually used some more colorful language to describe what he was seeing. Thats my kind of salesman. ;) I went back inside and took the back hallways around to the service managers office, and let him know the sales guy saw the same thing, so we're not all crazy.

    Fast forward a week or so later, after a couple unexpected visits to his office to check in, I got my answer last night:
    "Toyota is aware of the issue, and it will be covered completely under the 3/36 warranty, and will be fixed free of charge with Genuine Toyota glass."
    He then said something about windshield "inflections" or some random word I didnt pick up on, and asking him to repeat the technical term, caused him pause, as he could not remember the exact term either. I wasnt too concerned about the terminology he used, but rather the part where it is gonna be fixed. :D

    Using what I already know about light transmission (i play with a lot of lasers!), and windshield construction, here is a simpleton's breakdown of what is happening:

    Basically is boils down to this: there is a sheet of plastic in between the two layers of tempered glass that make up the windshield. This plastic layer if what houses the anti-UV and anti-IR "tinting", and provides the "glue" to hold the two layers of glass together should the windshield shatter in a collision. There is an occurrence where this sheeting is not properly oriented within the glass sandwich, causing light to enter, bounce back off the sheet to the outside glass, then reflect at another angle back in through to your eyes. Think of it as one of those old jukeboxes that has the two partial mirrors that reflect the light bulbs inside a bunch of times to make it looks alike a line of bulbs going way deep...

    Now, you dont see these reflections during the day, because the light source is the sun, which floods the car not only through the windshield, but through every other window as well, causing the "reflections" to be drowned out by all the available light bouncing around in your car. This also explains why the reflections begin to appear at dusk, and become more pronounced as the dark of night falls.

    Anyways, I've attached a couple thumbnails, one being the "light tunnel" effect I mentioned, and another crude drawing showing what is happening. Long story short, if you're one of the few experiencing this problem like myself in my 2013, there is hope, and there is indeed a fix that should be covered under warranty. Be persistent.

    il_fullxfull.373574174_8cl6.jpg windshieldlayerswtf.jpg

    Supposedly my dealership doesnt do glass work, but rather contracts it out to another locally owned shop (not a Safelite chain, but a professional local glass shop, thank God). I was told once the windshield arrives at the dealer, it will be turned over to the contractor, and they'll make an appointment to service the vehicle, then they return my old glass to the dealer, who then sends it back to Toyota as a warranty core. I think I will have the repairs done on the lot of the dealership, should there be a problem, everybody can see and immediately fix the issue.

    I will update the thread when this occurs...
     
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  18. RavenTBK

    RavenTBK Junior Member

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    I am sitting in the dealership right now, waiting for the glass contractor to arrive to actually fix my windshield. Its awful nice of Legacy Toyota in Tallahassee to provide these nifty desktops in the Scion corner of the showroom that are unblocked and free to roam the interwebz to PriusChat. :D Its also nice they left the door unlocked to the actual PC tower so I could stick in my usb sd reader to pull these pics off of my DSLR.

    Whats that? Yes, I took pictures. Since I had the appointment today, it got me motivated enough to take some photos of the "tripled images" that most folks simply do not see in their windshields, but is absolute hell on those of us that are forced to live with the defective ones. Only downside is these aren't at night, but early foggy morning, so the effects are not that dramatic, but are easy to see nonetheless. Hopefully if anybody else has this problem and getting nowhere with their dealer, maybe some of these pics will help.

    I had to grab my camera as the few oncoming cars rounded curves in front of me. Having my 35mm prime on the body made for wide shots, so I cropped the images to bring things in a bit closer.

    Let's get started shall we? Click any thumbnail to enlarge...

    First truck I encountered...look above and below the actual headlights for the "ghost" reflections.
    _DSC5091.CROP.jpg

    Next short line of cars...you can easily see the reflections floating above and below the actual vehicles.
    _DSC5094.CROP.jpg

    Off the side of the road facing the traffic light. The F350 dually is a monster for the reflections. Also take a peek at the red light itself...it has "ghosts" too.
    !1_DSC5122.jpg

    This is a view of the red light without the windshield...I opened up the drivers door, and stood in the gap.
    _DSC5118.JPG

    Back inside the car, a little more close in crops of traffic light action. Check out the ghosting on the yellow!
    _DSC5119.JPG

    _DSC5120.JPG

    Well, that's about it. I'm pretty much stuck here at the dealer until they get me finished, as my workplace is too far away for the comp ride, and it wont take long enough to deserve a loaner. I was told the contractor would be able to work me in before noon. Its 10:30a now...been here for an hour...1.5h-ish to go. Nobody is shopping Scions this early in the morning, so I think I might fire up Netflix on this "customization center". ;)

    When I'm completed, I'll provide whatever extra info I can gather to help further the cause. :D
     
  19. drewtx

    drewtx Junior Member

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    Wow! So I'm not the only one to have this!
    This is GREAT news!

    In November 2014 I traded in my 2008 Prius (bought new, put about 170k miles on it) for a Certified Pre-Owned 2012 Prius2.

    And, soon after I got it, I noticed this exact same problem.
    At night, lights have a triple image - with like a 'ghost' image both above and below the actual light source. It is particularly noticeable around very sharp light sources - such as LED tail lights. But all light sources have it. Such as on-coming headlights. When another vehicle is approaching in the opposite direct, and is still some distance away, the ghost images are quite widely separated; the upper ghost image can appear to be above the roof-line of the other car. But as the distance closes, the ghost images begin to merge towards the original light source. Tail lights are the same. If I'm at a stop-light behind somebody they the ghost images are nit visible, but, when the light goes green and the gap between the my vehicle and their expands, the ghost images expand out from the tail light.

    I have noticed that I have headaches when I get home after work. Arguably not that unusual for some folks, after busy days at work. But unusual for me. And I do not have the headaches when I depart from work; they start on my commute home while driving the Prius

    This week I finally put two and two together: The refraction in the windshield is causing my headaches.

    It feels a lot like when you try reading with glasses that are the wrong prescription. I guess the eyes, and brain, struggle to make sense of the 3 images they are receiving.

    And, although the effect is most noticeable at night (around light sources), the effect is there during the daytime too - since the windshield is the same both night and day.

    I really need to get this windshield replaced.
    It is causing real health issues.


    I'm off to the Dealer on Monday to see what the Certified Pre-Owned folks have to say about it!

    Many thanks, again, to all y'all on Prius Chat :)




    L
     
  20. xPETEx

    xPETEx Junior Member

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    Good luck! Keep us updated on your efforts.
     
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