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2011 Prius wont start

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by trboda6, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    How many different ways do we have to say NO before it will sink in ??? o_O
     
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  2. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    If he wants to stick knifes in his dryer outlet, we can advise against it. (and hope his survivors post it on YouTube)
     
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  3. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    No need to be jerks. It's a shame you've missed the whole point of the question.
    I haven't lived 91 years on this planet by doing stupid things.
    It was an honest question, that you want to turn around and try to confuse everything because you don't understand
    how to answer the question.
    Thank you Jerrymidred for providing useful intelligent answers!
     
  4. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    I think folks were getting the impression that you weren't listening. While this forum is an awesome resource, it's a whole lot easier to understand each other in face to face verbal communications. Many of these guys are engineers. We get pretty "direct" sometimes. ;)

    Just so you know for sure, I'm an electrical engineer, and trust me, if you connect two of the big, high power batteries together with no current-limiting controls, the results would be spectacular and painful. I've seen 277V short to ground. Heck of a fireball. :eek:
     
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  5. JimboPalmer

    JimboPalmer Tsar of all the Rushers

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    Whether YOU do what you are recommending or not, you are still advising others to do catastrophical experiments with their lives.
    Subtle discouragement apparently had no affect on you, I am glad we finally got through.
    Ideally no one reads just your posts.
     
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  6. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    First, I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THAT ANYONE CONNECT TWO HYBRID BATTERIES!!!!
    NO WHERE in any of my post do I even come close to suggesting that.
    WHERE did you get that idea? Please read correctly. I am sorry that you miss read it.
    Please try again, read it OUT LOUD, slowly, so you can hear the words coming out of your mouth.

    There was NOTHING to "get through" to me. And you certainly didn't. It's just something you made up.
    Decades ago it was not recommended to jump a 12v battery, but people did, and still do.
    The same thing can happen with the 12v battery as with the hybrid, obviously the hybrid will do more damage!

    To make it easy for you, here is my Original Post:
    Is it possible to jump the hybrid battery with another hybrid battery like the 12v battery?
    Aside from any safety items.
    I imagine it IS possible, but just how much would you have to take apart to do it?
    Could you do it at the inverter? Or would you have to remove the cover on the hybrid battery
    to get to the terminals? Then you could use the good hybrid to charge up the dead one enough to
    get it running so you could use the engine to charge it.

    It was a SIMPLE question of curiosity.
    Which I believe Jerymildred answered. I am happy with his reasoning.
     
  7. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Obviously the safe way to do it would be to use a Prolong Charger.

    Just to offer an OPINION contrary to the "will cause instant death" movement....

    Although I highly recommend against it for anyone not owning an electrical background. Also, being competent is required.

    It is certainly possible. Personally, I would have no problem doing this if conditions warranted it. I know of one well respected person on this board who has done it.

    The odds of this battery being totally depleted are about zero. I would suspect after 11 months there are a few modules that have self discharged. I have a battery pack (2006 model) that I had fully charged and has been on the shelf for 2 years. I just finished testing the modules again. 9 of the 28 were less than 7 volts. Of those 9, 6 were at 6.3v and the other 3 were between 6.4 and 6.9 vdc. 19 were still between 7.3 and 7.6 vdc. Even assuming all 28 had discharged to 6.3vdc, it would still be sitting at 177v overall, not 0. A typical battery is at 210-215 in a functional car so you're looking at ~40v delta. It's not difficult to put a meter on a battery to check its voltage to see where you're actually at.

    Remove safety disconnect from each HV battery. This will ensure the circuits on each battery are open, preventing any current flow until you are ready for it.

    Install cables from (+) to (+) and (-) to (-) on the battery side of the relays. You don't even need to know which is which. Just make sure each cable is connected to the same relay on each battery. Be smart about what you're using for cables and how you connect them. If you want to be safe (smart), install a 20 ohm/100+w power resister (or whatever, available all day long, online for about 25 bucks) and a fuse in one cable before you hook it up to the battery. Maybe even a on/off toggle switch if you'd like. That should limit current to V/R (deltaV/20=~2-3 amps). That way if something weird happens or you have a spike, it will pop the fuse instead of melting wires/etc.

    Insert disconnect on one battery. No need to do step 3 of the insertion. Power will be applied to the relay side as soon as the handle is lifted up and the disconnect is pulled into the socket. No current will flow because the other disconnect is still removed.

    As soon as you insert the second disconnect, (assuming you're not using a switch in the cable) current will flow from the good battery to the low battery. Limited by the resistor to deltaV/R

    If no resister/fuse, current could be as high as ~120 amps assuming 0.025 ohms per block. 14 blocks @~0.025 ohms = 0.35 ohms. 40/0.35=114 amps. Which would drop continually as the low battery increased in voltage and deltaV drops. Not the best idea in the world, as most switches/cables/fuses (including the safety disconnect fuse) probably wouldn't like it for the duration it might occur.

    If you're using a switch, then after installing both disconnects, shut the switch (this way your face isn't near the disconnects)

    Keep watch over it for a while. It shouldn't take long for the weak modules to get enough charge to be above 7.2v and a low charge rate of 2-3 amps isn't going to smoke any modules short term.


    Again, I'm not advising it, especially for the typical DIYer, just showing that it's not that difficult to do if you understand how electricity works and the situation warrants it.
    .
     
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  8. TMR-JWAP

    TMR-JWAP Senior Member

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    Is it possible to jump the hybrid battery with another hybrid battery like the 12v battery? Yes

    I imagine it IS possible, but just how much would you have to take apart to do it? Remove the interior panels from the rear trunk area to expose the battery. Remove the driver side battery case to car frame mount. Remove the cover for the battery electronics.

    Could you do it at the inverter? No, the relays inside the HV battery are open, therefore no flow path for current to charge the "low" battery.

    Or would you have to remove the cover on the hybrid battery to get to the terminals? Yes

    Then you could use the good hybrid to charge up the dead one enough to get it running so you could use the engine to charge it.
    Yes, it is possible. Heavy not advised for a typical DIYer, but fully possible for someone competent in electrical skills/knowledge.
     
  9. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    I was thinking about about a relay, fuse, or something like that. A resister to limit the amperage is a good idea.
    It would only have to be on long enough to start the car and wait for engine to start then you could disconnect the battery.
    But you could get a big serge which could damage the charger, but they do have fuses. :)
    And I will also repeat, I AM NOT RECOMMENDING TO DO THIS.
     
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  10. jerrymildred

    jerrymildred Senior Member

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    Agreed that it is technically possible with the proper preparations that @TMR-JWAP listed. I thought of mentioning some of those things earlier but didn't want to encourage anyone to mess with it who didn't already know that these things are necessary.

    I'm glad that we all seem to agree that this is highly NOT RECOMMENDED and only feasible if you know how to control the current.
     
  11. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    Nobody is being a "jerk".

    It appeared that you were asking the same question over and OVER and ignoring the calm and reasoned responses.
    At some point, the responses get a bit more pointed and less courteous.

    Sorry for the misunderstanding.
    Maybe you should read over your responses and try to see it from a different perspective.
    Or just drop it.
     
  12. ASRDogman

    ASRDogman Senior Member

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    "Please try again, read it OUT LOUD, slowly, so you can hear the words coming out of your mouth."
    Then quit while your behind.....
     
  13. The Electric Me

    The Electric Me Go Speed Go!

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    When I owned my Prius, I approached my Hybrid Battery as being a "No User Serviceable Parts" component.
    It's pretty much what all the high voltage warning stickers and bright orange wiring is really trying to tell you.
     
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  14. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    OK, so THAT is a really good example of being a jerk.
     
  15. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Senior Member

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    Yeah, get it towed to dealership, bring your credit card, the diagnostics should be around $100, go from there.
     
  16. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    I've glanced over this thread and think there's other issues. I can't imagine after 11 months the hv battery gets depleted to the point the car won't start.
     
  17. sam spade 2

    sam spade 2 Senior Member

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    That depends entirely on the initial conditions and maybe the environmental conditions too.......and is entirely possible.
    Why would you think that an old, weak battery that was only 20% charged when parked might not be prone to failure ??
     
  18. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    I've started a car with only 170v on the battery. When the battery off in the car, even at it's lowest charge would be around 210v. It would be very rare for a battery to self discharge to that level where it won't start. It's a 2011

    I was given a 2005 that sat for 2 years, started right up but was completely out of balance

    I would look at the fuel levels and fuel delivery. Assuming no fuses are blown
     
    #38 JC91006, Jul 14, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2018
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  19. Grit

    Grit Senior Member

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    One side teetered? How does that happen in storage mode?
     
  20. JC91006

    JC91006 Senior Member

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    The old weak modules discharge at different rates, some discharge a little and stabilize, some keep discharging and fail. All the cells (28 x 6) discharge at different rates
     
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