2012 Prius DEATH RATTLE persists AFTER replacing EGR valve etc.

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Care, Maintenance & Troubleshooting' started by Sapnetjr, May 5, 2018.

  1. Sapnetjr

    Sapnetjr New Member

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    Hi All,

    2012 Prius, 180k. Hard cold start on and off for about 8 weeks. Random misfire 300, 302 and 304's...not always the same. Last week wife got message on dash to find a safe place to park.

    Next day after reading MANY posts on here I replaced plugs and PCV. Cleaned IM with new gaskets, Throttle body, EGR valve and cooler spotless with OXY clean method. (Tear-down, cleaning, re-assembly took about 15 hrs spread over 3 days. Many notes taken from Nutz and Boltz vids! Thanks!)

    Started car after done and ran wonderful. I was the hero of the house!

    Next morning, wife starts car...DEATH SHAKE BACK! GRRRR! Thought it might just be from some sort of random carbon particles letting loose after cleaning so I had wife continue to drive to the store to maybe "burn it off". Problem persisted throughout the day.

    That night I ordered brand new EGR valve for $270ish and installed upon arrival. (Due to advice from mechanic friend even though no 401 code.) Started after install and STILL shaking/misfire 300/301/302/304. Goes away in a few seconds and then runs fine.

    I was going to do this same cleaning process to our 2011 Prius as well, (285k miles. No codes, but hard starts every so often) but I chickened out and only replaced the plugs this morning. (We also had a 2007 Prius that died 2 years ago with 310k miles. Sealed tranny ran dry with NO signs of leaking.)

    Long story longer....Any help with what direction I should go now??? Was thinking about replacing the coils next. Want to do as much as I can myself before bringing it to the dealer...but I don't want to keep tossing money into it without knowing.

    Thanks for all your advice from this site so far.
     
  2. danlatu

    danlatu Senior Member

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    Any coolant loss? Did you remove the intake manifold and make sure all the ports are 100% cleaned out. The small ports where the egr feeds into the cylinders is the most important part to clean and gets gummed up. I have seen others clean the manifold but did not give enough detail in this area. I had 80% blockage and took more than a day of soaking and flushing to free all the carbon. I had pea sized carbon chunks shooting out where you see the water shooting through the egr pipe.

    Screen Shot 2018-05-06 at 10.16.04 PM.png

    In this video they went to town on cleaning the egr section of the manifold.

     
    #2 danlatu, May 6, 2018
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
  3. NutzAboutBolts

    NutzAboutBolts Senior Member

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    I feel like you should’ve dealt with the misfire before tackling the egr system... is that misfire still there? Did you change the spark plugs?
     
  4. tankyuong

    tankyuong Senior Member

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    try an oil catch can
     
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  5. Patrick Wong

    Patrick Wong DIY Enthusiast

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    These are the potential trouble areas. While it is easy to replace the spark igniters, I would say the probability that you have three failed igniters is low especially since the problem occurs only upon startup.

    I am wondering whether the fuel pump is slow to build up pressure, thus causing momentary misfire upon startup. Try making the car IG-ON for a few seconds (from IG-OFF, press the POWER switch twice without depressing the brake pedal), prior to pressing the brake pedal and then pressing the POWER switch again to make the car READY, to see if that helps. The idea is to give the fuel pump a few seconds to build up pressure in the fuel rail before you try to start the engine.

    upload_2018-5-7_7-5-21.png
     
    #5 Patrick Wong, May 7, 2018
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
  6. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Hopefully not, but could it be the head gasket? Any coolant loss? Compression test and leak-down test?

    Also: Manifold Absolute Pressure (MAP) sensor: it's directly below the thottle body, tends to be completely oil soaked. Did you clean that, say with MAF sensor cleaner?

    I too would say an OCC is in order, especially now that everything is cleaned.
     
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  7. danlatu

    danlatu Senior Member

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    If the system is factory clean, like a new prius intake manifold, the oil catch can would do nothing to prevent knock at first start up. The occ traps over time keeping a cleaner im or intake manifold. If the intake manifold was filled with oil/water/fuel starting the car would most likely cause knock. Bad coils are highly unlikely, burning oil from bad valve seals and or pcv/im/oil sucking into the combustion chamber with fowl plugs up creating knock. This incomplete or uneven combustion causes knock. Bad spark plugs, too much compression (oil/water/fuel/coolant) in combustion chamber, incorrect fuel (per compression ratio) etc. Smooth combustion is about balance with the correct air to fuel ratio, balance compression ratios on all cylinders, proper spark and valve timing.

    Did you clean your egr cooler? A leak down test and compression test? Make sure all wiring harness' and plugs are firmly fitted. Hard knock at start up for 8 weeks will destroy a head gasket.
     
    #7 danlatu, May 7, 2018
    Last edited: May 7, 2018
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  8. Sapnetjr

    Sapnetjr New Member

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    Thanks for the replies all!

    After cleaning IM I had great flow through small ports with garden hose just as shown in pic from danlatu.

    I pondered oil catch can as well, but as stated, everything is currently oil free from cleaning. (including cooler)

    Mendel, I just wiped MAP carefilly with a clean rag, but didn't spray.

    Mechanic friend texted me that he didn't think it would be the coils either but said:

    "I would start with checking fuel presser and see if it's bleeding down after the engine is shut off. And look at the freeze frame data. Then go from there."

    **Not sure if this is what Patrick Wong was stating as well?**

    I didn't know what the heck this meant so we took it in yesterday. I'm fearing that this is going to hurt the old pocket book!
     
  9. Sapnetjr

    Sapnetjr New Member

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    Mendel. What is OCC?
     
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  10. Sapnetjr

    Sapnetjr New Member

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    Oil Catch Can...got it. :)
     
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  11. danlatu

    danlatu Senior Member

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    A dirty/leaking/bad fuel injector, can create insufficient combustion, knock and even flood a combustion chamber. The carbon deposits from the egr and pcv can make the outside of the injectors dirty, bad spray pattern or clogged. I would send your injectors to get cleaned tested or buy new. Fuel injector cleaner will do nothing. You need fuel (check pressure/spray), spark (check gap you have new plugs), compression (check compression/leakdown). These are the only things i can think of if everything is clean. Check for vacuum leaks, any leaks can create fuel pressure problems. Vacuum controls fuel pressure via ecu.

    Screen Shot 2018-05-10 at 1.42.09 PM.png
     
  12. Sapnetjr

    Sapnetjr New Member

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    Well, Mendel was right. Took it to the local shop and they said it's a leaky head gasket. $2,600 if they have to pull the engine, but they think they can maybe do it without pulling and it would be around $1,500.

    Does anyone know if this can be done without pulling the engine?
     
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  13. danlatu

    danlatu Senior Member

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    Head gasket can be done without pulling the motor but may take the same time as pulling. The timing chain cover is a pain in the a s s. I asked if you had any coolant loss. If you had pulled the plugs you would see coolant in the combustion chamber. White smoke from the exhaust is the other indicator.
     
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  14. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

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    Head gaskets can be done without pulling the engine, but the published book time takes engine removal into consideration.


    iPhone ? Pro
     
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  15. evilchargerfan

    evilchargerfan Junior Member

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    After doing the intake mani cleaning, and egr cleaning (thanks @NutzAboutBolts for the awesome youtube videos) the car drove fine for an awesome 500 miles, 2-3 weeks. and then out of no where, the CEL's for misfire cyl 1 came back.

    @danlatu
    My coolant overflow tank was most definitely low on coolant. Well below the "low" line.

    [​IMG]


    The only things I have NOT done, that I can brainstorm:
    -clean or replace injectors
    -leak down test
    -compression test
     
  16. evilchargerfan

    evilchargerfan Junior Member

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    I was tempted to make my own thread, about my on going "shakes on startup" issue and misfire CEL's, but I didnt want to clutter the forum. If anyone has some spare time, would you guys kindly see my thread over from club lexus? its losing steam over there, as I think the few users on there are out of ideas:

    Chargerfan - First Problem Detected 117K: Engine Shake On Take Off And On Start Up - ClubLexus - Lexus Forum Discussion

    (mods, if linking to another forum is not allowed, please advise and I shall delete)
     
  17. The Critic

    The Critic Resident Critic

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    Get an inspection camera and inspection cylinders 1 and 2. Between the cold start misfires and low coolant level, there is a decent chance that you have a head gasket leak.


    iPhone ? Pro
     
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  18. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    The low-hanging fruit in the above is the two tests. I would have to watch videos myself, to recollect just how they're performed, what you're looking for, but I believe they're quite effective at diagnosising head gasket failure. A compressor tester is (obviously) required, and I believe leak-down requires additional gizmo.

    Looking through the attachment from the Repair Manual on compression testing, Techstream is mentioned with tedious regularity. Maybe @NutzAboutBolts knows some work around, if it's possible to compression test (and leak-down test?) without Techstream?

    You could always let dealership do the deed.



     

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  19. evilchargerfan

    evilchargerfan Junior Member

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    *gulp*

    I was hoping the words "head" and "gaskets" would not be mentioned ....

    okay, so thats my plan of attack than .... leak down and compression test. wish me luck all, will report back in a few days
     
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  20. Mendel Leisk

    Mendel Leisk Sand Pounder

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    Here's inspection mode info, mentioned in the above:
     

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