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2013 Volt: 98MPGe, 38miles EV range

Discussion in 'Chevrolet Volt' started by drinnovation, Jun 7, 2012.

  1. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    Well I'm not sure I understand your stance. I mean, I understand what you are trying to say but I think you are wrong. The Volt wasn't meant to be a replacement for the Prius. It was meant to be a revolutionary new type of vehicle to meet the needs for many and it is selling quite well actually. It is actually meant to bridge the gap into the EV world. It will get people thinking in KW instead of MPG, much like the Prius made people comfortable with having an electric traction motor in their car in the first place. They are matching Prius sales if you look at the Prius sales in the infancy of the Prius. I don't know how one would expect the car to just boom to current day Prius-like sales without having a reputation yet. The Prius is so popular that even when separated from Toyota it's still #3.

    The reason Volt owners have been so defensive is because they have to keep responding to blatant ignorance that seems to echo from outlets like Fox News. You honestly sound like correspondent on Fox and Friends right now! The Volt is primarily an electric vehicle. The drivetrain is nearly full electric and cannot be operated without the electric motors, however could in theory operate absent of the engine. Removing battery capacity would be a step in the wrong direction. It would take such a hit to it's efficiency which is based upon electric miles, not gas miles. The engine didn't need to be efficient as it's supposed to be a failsafe. I'm honestly astonished that you find a 4,500 pound vehicle that has a full gasoline engine and a full electric motor drivetrain, a 450lb battery, and a gas storage tank getting basically 40 mpg to be inefficient.

    I know you once mentioned that it is unfair to compare the Prius to the Volt. I couldn't agree more. They are two very separate but extremely awesome vehicles. And yet what you do constantly is try to compare the two. It's also not a niche vehicle. It's just an infant vehicle. There are other vehicles that sell many fewer cars than Chevy sells Volts and people do not refer to them as niche vehicles.

    A lot of people dropped out of the Volt movement when they couldn't afford the car, or get them in their area. Honestly, you simply cannot get something for nothing. When you make a car that has a 16kwh battery, and gasoline engine your kind of getting two cars in one. The interior is amazing. It has a ride quality and weight that more-so match the Cadillac CTS. In time hopefully the Voltec drivetrain can make it into other cars and as technology advances and more are produced the cost can come down. Most people STILL say that the added price for a hybrid isn't worth it. However, people like you and I saw right through that and noticed that it was an investment and that we would realize a return. We are far sighted proactive people, and not short sighted people. Sometimes as early adopters we have to pay a higher price than those that come after us. I'm kind of surprised that I'm having conversation with you on Priuschat. Your actually the last person I ever imagined defending the Volt to. I know people have their preferences favorite automobiles but there is a line.
     
  2. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    Mmm, does it come with a "chastity belt"?

    DBCassidy:D
     
  3. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    What is the the definition of " minimization of waste of a particular set of resources"?

    Praytell

    DBCassidy
     
  4. dbcassidy

    dbcassidy Toyota Hybrid Nation, 8 Million Strong

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    LOL!!! ICE is running: BAD, BAD, BAD, ICE! How dare you (ICE) for coming on, BAD, BAD, BAD! I feel ashamed for my ICE running! AAAAH, how EMBARASSING!!! Wait, I know, I can go from BAD, BAD, BAD to GOOD, GOOD, GOOD!, I just remove the bad ICE, and put in more batteries! Then there will be no more BAD, BADS!!!;)

    DBCassidy
     
  5. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    Ah good points all around. I hate it when the ICE comes on and I would prefer more batteries lol.
     
  6. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    I feel the same way. I hate it when the ICE comes on;)
    It is noisy and less smooth. Also an audible reminder that I am, while it is running, contributing to our trade deficit.
    While I can't avoid the ICE 100% of the time, the more I can avoid it the better.
     
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  7. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I know they were always behind in fuel economy and emissions. As PHV electric ranges increases, their advantages will start outweighing the disadvantages. The rotary genset for the A1 only needed the space of a 10 inch cube. If that allows for a larger battery, I think most people will find the lower economy for the fewer gas miles acceptable.It has a more likely future as an add on range extender for a BEV though.

    Buying from Ford sounds like a good option. It just seems now, that long as GM keeps improving the EV range, they don't need radical changes in the ICE. Just adapting what is being put into their cars. DI would appear to be the next step for the 1.4L in the Cruze and Sonic, but the Spark has a 1.2L.

    Way to undermine my point about it not weighing as much as a full size SUV.:)
    The Volt's curb weight is 3781 pounds. Shaving off some weight might be a better investment than the ICE.
     
  8. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Well GM does have 1.0L in the GM Family 0 (same family as the Volt's 1.4L). Both are used in variations of the Spark, so they have the choice of using a 3-cyl 1.0l in another production line. But I don't think that will have the power they want for Gen II.

    it would be interesting if they use the new HCCI (Homogenous Charge Compression Ignition) technology, which is more efficient than just DI. In 2010 they demonstrated it in a 1.4L VVT DI setup. (In 2008 when they first announced the tech it was in a 2.2L). The claim is the its diesel like mode, which does not use the spark plug, yields 15% improvement in fuel economy with reduced emissions. When I heard the Volt was getting the 1.4L, I was hopping that is why they done the HCCI in a 1.4L version... maybe for Gen II.

    Here is an article discussing some of the HCCI issues, with lots of interesting links
    What's the Big Secret? Could it be HCCI?
     
  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I think most will disagree that the Volt is off track. Of annual car sales, around 3% are hybrids. Replacing traditional vehicles is a long term goal. The majority are still passing over plain old hybrids.

    How long did it take Toyota to offer variations of the Prius? When will NA get the hybrid minivan wished for and already being made? The Volt has only been on sale for 3 years, and is only at the refresh stage of the model life cycle. Most of the price is do to the battery and the fact that traction batteries of that scale is a new industry. GM doesn't have the resources of Nissan to invest in it. The Cruze PHV should satisfy the desire of a cheap Volt.

    The Cruze available now can easily be featured out to over $20k. The Prius goes over $30k. I wish the Volt cost less. I wish all cars did.

    I have asked before, how do you propose they lower the price? A comparable Cruze is $23k to $24k. The lion's share of the difference between it and Volt is the battery. We now see how a slight increase in battery size can improve EV range and efficiency. A smaller battery will likely reduce it. I think most agree that isn't worth a reduction in price for the model. People were disappointed the Prius Cs combined mpg wasn't better than the Prius.

    Most of the Cruze's price increase is from the transmission. Even if possible, a manual transmission Volt wouldn't sell. Decontenting can save some, but would really just be used for advertising. How many Prius Cs sold are the base? GM already went bankrupt. Taking a loss with them climbing out of a hole and the scrutiny isn't going to happen. So how would you propose they do it?
     
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  10. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    I've heard of HCCI, but it still seems to be unready for the market.
    Automotive News Blog
    Is the most recent news on it. GM would pull a coup if they did skip over DI and went straight to HCCI in the engine line up. If they did, any bets on how long before particle emissions are brought up.:rolleyes:
     
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  11. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    Thanks .. I had not seen the update article.
    Still one of the interesting thing for the volt is it may be able to avoid the "high speed" issue since can choose its RPMs independent of throttle, and use the battery for passing speeds.

    I agree is not highly likely, but a man can dream.
     
  12. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    That a1 rotary/genset is only 15KW, it would get bigger to power a volt. The ecoboost 1L is 75kw, likely can generate 65kw. It is much bigger but still small, only 1 foot long. It is fairly tall though. The iron which is used to make it smaller does make it close to the weight of a small 4 cyl at 215lbs dry. A rotary with genset is an interesting idea if you only need 25kw or less, but the volt needs more than that.


    The idea was a turbo 1L for efficiency, the normally aspirated 1.4L might have too little power to be as efficient as it could be. GM can't just add a turbo to their current 3cyl and get great efficiency gains, it needs to modify much of the design which is what will take development money. Hence my suggestion of them buying them from a company that has already done the work.

    I think improvements to the 1.4L are the most likely. AFAIK gasoline HCCI is still in the lab. Everyone is working on it. It would take a clean sheet engine though, but gm could put them in many cars. Mazda did say they designed skyactiv to be part of the way to hcci, and gave that as a reason that they didn't design them with turbo charging.
     
  13. brad_rules_man

    brad_rules_man Hybrid electric revolutionizer

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    What about the gas direct ignition? You guys really seem to know your stuff on these drivetrain components. Any ideas on that?
     
  14. austingreen

    austingreen Senior Member

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    What you are thinking of is gasoline direct injection (DI). We all think that is likely to be added if they continue to use the 1.4L. GM initially was going to use DI, but found that the cruze hit the efficiency they wanted without it. Car and Driver has estimated DI - which means injecting the fuel directly into the cylinders instead of the port and increasing compression - cost about $200/engine a couple of years back. This is fairly easy to do.

    Or maybe you are talking about igniting the gas by pressure instead of the spark plug, that is HCCI. This requires DI.

    The other technology is multi-mode valving, which used to be very expensive, but fiat and mazda have brought the cost down a great deal. With this and di, the engine can run like an otto when power is needed, but gets an atkinson like cycle for efficiency. In the prius atkinson cycle the intake valves are closed late, allowing air to escape reducing pumping losses. In multi-mode even egr can be controlled with the valving. Both intake and exhaust valves are closed late, and part of the higher pressure exhaust gas helps push the cylinder down further reducing pumping losses. Multi-mode helps improve DI, and is required for HCCI.
     
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    You should have spoke up a hell a lot sooner. Having someone like you at my side to work with would have made things much, much easier. There was no open dialog. The other forums made outsiders feel very unwelcome. That allowed the constant comparisons to get way out of hand, since there was no venue available for input.

    Volt was promoted very differently until late last year. We kept hearing sales would pick up significantly in the second. Now, the perspective has shifted to a wait for it to evolve outlook. If expectations would have simply been stated like that in the first place, all that previous strife could have been avoided.

    Have you noticed how much GM's advertising has recently changed? The "230 MPG" and "Gas Free" campaigns of the past were very misleading and they did nothing with respect to informing how or when. Consumers got the impression it was a new revolutionary technology ready for mainstream penetration. That ended up contributing to the fallout we've been dealing with.

    Remember my recent complaints about mixing of present & future? I was reaching out, hoping for someone to finally step up. You did. So, what's next?
     
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  16. Zythryn

    Zythryn Senior Member

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    John, you seem to be taking the idiotic marketing decisions GM made (230mpg is a great example) and extended that to pro Volt posters.
    There have been a number of posters who stepped up and have given a great level of detail about the Volt, about why it works better for them than a Prius, or now a PiP.

    And for someone complaining about there not being 'open dialog' at other sites, you sure did your best to close down any poster that didn't agree with you on this one.
     
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  17. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    All I see there is complaints about the past without any suggestion about what to do next.

    How is that constructive?
     
  18. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    What would be really interesting is if we could get away from thinking that the range extension part has to be infinite miles. It takes me 9 to 11 hours to drive the 600 miles to my parents. Most people going on such trips need to take a break for the night. Truckers are required by to do so by law.
    Instead of sizing the range extender to provide power of full performance for the car, size it to give power for surface street driving. During highway driving, the extender is engaged right away while there is plenty of SOC in the battery. It supplements to power going to the motor. The draw from the battery is a fraction of normal during high speed cruise. So that its highway EV range is doubled, tripled, etc.
    It likely wouldn't be acceptable in a PHV. If the ICE is built into the car, people will expect the capabilities of a traditional car. It has potential as an add on range extender. All the range extenders that have been built or proposed have been infinite mile ones on trailers. An extender that multiplies the highway range of a BEV allows for smaller and lighter ICEs, so a hitch haul type carrier might be all that is needed. If a person makes a mistake and overestimates the range they have, they won't be stranded, they'll be able to move at slower speeds. A more severe version of the gen1 turtle mode. Plus, it can charge the battery at stops in case a plug is unavailable.
     
  19. drinnovation

    drinnovation EREV for EVER!

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    The volt is different..it is radically different in what it provides over the Prius. It provides full EV experience/power/efficiency most of the time. Even the PiP is a weak attempt to catchup.

    Sales are picking up, but slowly. But the economy is not what it was when then Volt was first discussed.

    Its new, and not really cheap, which are, in my view, the main reason its not growing as fast as hoped.
    While the TCO is good, most people don't think TCO, they think initial price.

    I am very sure the average consumer does not at all understand it. Heck there are journalists that don't, or if they do are intentionally misleading people. And when well-respected hybrid champions deride the car it definitely sends confusing messages.

    GM advertising for the Volt has been weak since its launch. Still is. But if you don't make a lot of profit per car, and its a halo, maybe the strategy is to not say too much. Yeah the 230 backfired because while it was based on an EPA formula, it was not an approved formula and everyone quickly backpedaled on both sides. Yet, it is still worth noting that more than 37% of the folks (415/1107) on voltstats.net have a lifetme average over 230MPG, and that includes all their long trips (highway) and the Median is over 170mpg.

    You keep asking what's next? No one here seem to have any real influence in policy, or what either toyota or GM will do. All we can do he help educate people about the advantages of the Volt (and PiP.. ) and green energy. That's how we can be constructive.

    Plenty of volt and pip users are doing just that, helping to support education. All we hear from you is whining about what GM said/did in the pre-volt past. You malign the volt with vague assertions and double speak about your view of its market/marketing. How is any of that constructive?
     
  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    To me, that appears to describing your behavior here. You seem intent on putting the Volt down for not meeting goals stated in the past. As for the marketing and PR of the past, companies sell widgets, and sometimes they do foolish things in order to make sale. The 23ompg was one of those things, and it likely cost them some support at the time. But how long ago was that? Have they been repeating it lately?

    Since the Volt came out, just about every thread on it has somebody bringing up what GM did in the past. You are right it isn't constructive, but it isn't the Volt supporters here.

    The Volt didn't meet expectations. Sales were likely lost because of that. The buyers that got past that seem to quite happy with what came to market. The major hang up for improvement is the current battery tech. That's true for all plug ins. Until then what else can be improved, and how?
     
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