1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

2018 HyCam amateur review and ongoing blog

Discussion in 'Toyota Hybrids and EVs' started by CamryDriver, Jan 22, 2018.

  1. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Well, I'm a little disappointed. 50.8 MPG lifetime displayed minus 4.75 percent is around 48.4 MPG which is awesome in general but the car is rated for 52.
     
  2. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I took my first ever highway trip to to valley. Got 58 MPG (displayed) going down to the valley at 70 MPH. Only got 46 MPG on the return trip uphill for an average of 52 MPG displayed round trip.

    If the display didn't run a bit hot this would be impressive and in line with what the car is rated but the actual MPGs at the pump are about 4.75 percent less or 49.5 MPGs. Not bad but not the advertised 53 MPG highway either.

    I used no climate control at all BTW.
     
  3. Spindifferent

    Spindifferent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    155
    79
    0
    Location:
    Central Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Well, some days are great, others not so good. :)

    More miles, warmer temps, greater variety of driving conditions, (more data) will certainly provide perspective on how it performs.

    I’m still hopeful that the LE will perform near its estimated MPG given the various MPG reports that I’ve read.

    Come late this month, I hope to start contributing to the MPG data (if my wife will let me drive the car). :)
     
    Prodigyplace likes this.
  4. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    51 MPG Lifetime displayed.

    My old hybrid was a great car but it was under powered. Now with the new 2018 Hybrid Camry:

    camry zoom.jpg
     
    Prodigyplace likes this.
  5. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Tank 4
    53.2 calculated vs 55.7 MPG displayed (best tank so far)
    or 4.5 % optimistic

    Lifetime average 51.6 (displayed)
    trip 548.9 miles
    10.314 gallons
    $24.74




    Tank 1 was:
    52.7 MPG at the pump vs 55.0 MPG displayed
    or 4.3% optimistic

    Tank 2 was:
    51.64 MPG calculated vs 54.2 MPG displayed.
    or 4.9% optimistic

    and Tank 3 was:
    52.6 MPG calculated vs 55.3 displayed.
    or 5.1% optimistic
     
  6. Spindifferent

    Spindifferent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    155
    79
    0
    Location:
    Central Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    We just took delivery of our 2018 Camry Hybrid LE yesterday.

    I'll try and collect data while my wife drives. This may not be an easy task. :)
     
    CamryDriver, pilotgrrl and bisco like this.
  7. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Congratulations Spindifferent! I hope you like your new car. I certainly like mine, maybe more than my nitpicky personality lets on.
     
    Spindifferent likes this.
  8. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    So a word about my last tank which included a stint of highway driving.

    My basis for comparison are my previous hybrid and the EPA estimates.

    Compared to my previous hybrid the highway trip in the Camry was impressive. The Camry has a lot more power and got slightly better mileage then the previous hybrid on the highway. The Camry had no trouble maintaining speeds in spite of some steep terrain.

    Compared to EPA the Camry was slightly disappointing on the highway. I mean it does great, just not as great as advertised, so far anyhow. We will see what warmer temps do this Summer.

    On my regular commute my previous hybrid got much better mileage than the Camry. The Camry is doing fine but I'm using some special techniques just to meet EPA. My previous hybrid got up to 80 MPG (for a whole tank, not just a short trip) using these techniques in spite of being rated similarly to the Camry. Once again we will see what warmer weather brings.
     
    Spindifferent and Prodigyplace like this.
  9. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    11,696
    11,317
    0
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    I forget. What was your previous hybrid?
     
  10. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Honda Civic Hybrid with a manual transmission. The Civic's display was slightly optimistic so this tank just squeaked past 80 MPG calculated.

    661MILES Civic MPG crop.jpg

    Managed 1000 miles on one tank:
    Civic MPG cropped.jpg
     
    Prodigyplace likes this.
  11. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,596
    11,220
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The average speed for the EPA highway and high speed test cycles are under 49mph.

    Did your Civic have the battery fix?
     
  12. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I'm not sure. I took it in a couple of times for some updates and eventually had to replace the battery.

    Yes, lets talk about that. The EPA has changed the way they do things more than once. They made a big change during the time I owned my last hybrid leading to 2 different ratings for the same vehicle, one in the new standard and one on the old.

    Now I had thought that they changed the highway test to include higher speed and more accessory use and also that they "adjusted" the ratings (downward) to be more realistic.

    Upon further investigation it looks like my assumptions were only partly correct and I'm still not sure exactly how all this works. Now I understand that they did NOT change the highway test but added 2 new tests in addition? I also saw something about a 22% derating?

    It actually looks to me as if there are 4 tests, a city, a highway, an aggressive driving and an accessory test?

    EDIT: Maybe 5 tests including those listed above plus a cold weather test.

    What is your understanding of the current EPA methodology?
     
    #172 CamryDriver, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2018
  13. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    11,696
    11,317
    0
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    @bwilson4web tends to keep up on EPA testing details. Hopefully he can chime in here
     
  14. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Looks like maybe 5 tests...


    City, Highway, High Speed, A/C, and ColdTemp

    Detailed Test Information

    Looks like there was a big change in 2008 and a small adjustment in 2017. Maybe a change way back in 1984 as well.

    2017 Ratings Changes
     
    #174 CamryDriver, Mar 30, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 30, 2018
    Trollbait and Prodigyplace like this.
  15. Prodigyplace

    Prodigyplace Senior Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2016
    11,696
    11,317
    0
    Location:
    Central Virginia
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius
    Model:
    Two
    Yes there was a 2017 MY change.
    The 2016 Prius used the 2017 numbers, causing concern there was not as much an increase in economy as hoped.
     
  16. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,596
    11,220
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    The city and highway tests are unchanged from when they were first devised. They reflect more sedate driving styles and lower power cars of the '50s, plus limitations of the available testing equipment. Ideally, we should change them to reflect current driving styles, but the tests aren't just for window stickers. The adjusted numbers are used CAFE, and the their primary purpose was for emissions. Changing them wouldn't be a simple undertaking.

    Viewing a car's CAFE values will show that the unadjusted results are way higher than what people experience on the road. I think there was an adjustment from the beginning for the window sticker, which was further adjusted in 1984. This was just a flat percentage change to the raw numbers.

    The city and highway tests are still the basis for the sticker values, but 2008 introduced the three other tests that were used to determine the adjustment factor for those values. Doing those tests aren't mandatory, and a mathematical method can be applied instead. That works for many models, but leads to inflated numbers for hybrids, turbos, and other efficiency boosting technology. That is how Ford got the original values for the Fusion hybrid.

    The 2016/2017 changes were mostly clarifications to the rules surrounding the actual tests. Things like how to average results and how much wear the tires can have. Hyundai's big fine stemmed from confusion over what results could used to average the final numbers, IIRC. A big change that did directly effect the test results was the speed used for the coast down test. This this measured the effect of aerodynamics, rolling resistance, and drive line resistance. This is used for determining the load resistance of the test dynamometer.

    It is a simple test. Start at one speed, let the car coast down to 10 or 5mph, and measure the time it took and distance covered. Originally, the start speed was 50mph. that was increased to 70mph.
     
  17. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2005
    27,068
    15,372
    0
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Vehicle:
    2017 Prius Prime
    Model:
    Prime Plus
    I use the coefficients to plot a curve of how much power is needed to sustain any given speed. Then take the engine efficiency and SWAG the vehicle electrical overhead and you can work out a smooth curve of MPG as a function of mph at any speed. Do three benchmarks to work out any unknowns and you're there:
    [​IMG]

    For the BMW i3-REx:
    [​IMG]

    Bob Wilson
     
  18. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Hit 52 MPG lifetime! The displayed mileage now matches the EPA combined rating.This would make me happier except the display is about 4.75% high so it looks like 2.5 MPG to go to really be matching EPA calculated at the pump. I'm confident warmer temps will get us there, eventually.
     
    breakfast, bisco and Prodigyplace like this.
  19. CamryDriver

    CamryDriver Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2018
    541
    391
    0
    Location:
    Arkansas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Pics? Mileage so far?
     
  20. Spindifferent

    Spindifferent Member

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2011
    155
    79
    0
    Location:
    Central Texas
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    Not much to report thus far.

    154 miles on the car, 41.7 mpg displayed.
    Thankfully, none of the recent Camry recalls apply to our unit.
    Been spending time helping my wife configure and understand all of the tech on the car.

    I only have about 5 miles on the car as my wife is the primary driver. Will report more observations once I have some additional seat time.