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2023 Prius Reviews

Discussion in 'Gen 5 Prius Main Forum' started by Danny, Dec 14, 2022.

  1. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    Last example of my frustration and not knowing what to get next: the new Hyundai Ioniq 6 is praised for its range. Too bad the 361 mi are possible only if you get the “cheap” base model. As soon as you step away from that trim to get, what I would consider, standard features, you lose about 60mi of range (-15%!) to wheels you cannot even “unselect”.
    So, no, the Ioniq 6 is effectively a 300mi range BEV like most out there. And the efficiency is necessary so that they can put a smaller battery, to offer the same range as everybody else, while needing to get more expensive trims to get standard features.
    I would expect the need for a higher trim to get more range. It is the opposite. Clearly my priorities don’t match all marketing teams (and most consumers??) out there.

    And btw, bigger wheels, more expensive tires. Who pays for that? Us.
     
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  2. Roqu3

    Roqu3 Member

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    Redmi Note 9S ?
     
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  3. pakitt

    pakitt Senior Member

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    I haven’t seen a Prius in a fast lane doing 5 under ever. I see a lot instead doing 15 plus in the far right lane because NOBODY can’t keep the limit in any other lane…and then you have the F1 racers, with trailers. Welcome to Colorado…
     
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  4. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    for toyota, it's all about battery supply. they didn't believe bevs were going to catch on.
    then they didn't believe the transition would happen as fast as it is.
    they denigrated plug ins for years. after the pip, they started in on bevs, and batteries not being ready for prime time.
    now they claim they have seen the light. might just be hogwash, but even if they have, it's gonna take years to secure adequate battery supply.
     
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  5. John321

    John321 Senior Member

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  6. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    years
     
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  7. Terrell

    Terrell Old-Timer

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    I agree. My 2010 Prius with the cruise controls on the stick are very easy to use. A rental car I drove with all the buttons on the steering wheel was impossible to use in winter while wearing gloves. I had to remove my glove and look each time, to make sure I was pressing the right little button.
     
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  8. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

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    I wish people would stop making up reasons to make Toyota sound like the evil empire. It's not like they are trying to take over the world or something like that.
     
    #168 dbstoo, Apr 10, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2023
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  9. Nntw

    Nntw Active Member

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    There's a fair bit of stuff in the media suggesting Toyota is not certain about its electric car strategies, and that it is considering changing direction. These are facts, even if a previous poster didn't provide references.

    A cursory search on google turns up corroborating information....

    Toyota CEO doubles down on EV strategy amid criticism it's not moving fast enough

    Toyota CEO doubles down on EV strategy amid criticism it’s not moving fast enough
    PUBLISHED THU, SEP 29 20222:26 PM EDTUPDATED THU, SEP 29 20228:38 PM EDT
    [​IMG]
    Michael Wayland@MIKEWAYLAND
    SHARE
    KEY POINTS
    • Toyota Motor is standing by its electric vehicle strategy, including hybrids like the Prius, following criticism.
    • Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda said Thursday the company will move forward with plans to offer an array of so-called electrified vehicles for the foreseeable future.
    • Toyota plans to invest roughly $70 billion in electrified vehicles, including $35 billion in all-electric battery technologies over the nine years.
    In this article

    [​IMG]
    A Toyota bZ4X on display at the New York Auto Show, April 13, 2022.
    Scott Mlyn | CNBC
    LAS VEGAS – Toyota Motor is standing by its electric vehicle strategy, including hybrids like the Prius, following criticism by some investors and environmentalist groups that the company is transitioning too slowly to EVs.

    Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda, who has built a corporate strategy around the idea that EVs aren’t the only solution for automakers to reach carbon neutrality, said Thursday the company will move forward with plans to offer an array of so-called electrified vehicles for the foreseeable future – ranging from hybrids and plug-ins to all-electric and hydrogen electric vehicles.


    “Everything is going to be up to the customers to decide,” he said through a translator during a small media roundtable, a day after addressing the company’s Toyota dealers at their annual conference in Las Vegas.

    Toyoda addressed the need to convince skeptics of the company’s strategy, including government officials focusing regulations on all-electric battery vehicles, saying the automaker will “present the hard facts” about consumer adoption and the entire environmental impact of producing EVs compared with hybrid electrified vehicles.

    Since the Prius launched in 1997, Toyota says it has sold more than 20 million electrified vehicles worldwide. The company says those sales have avoided 160 million tons of CO2 emissions, which is the equivalent to the impact of 5.5 million all-electric battery vehicles.

    Toyoda’s remarks echoed comments he made to thousands of Toyota dealers and employees on Wednesday, saying the company will play “with all the cards in the deck” and offer a wide-array of vehicles for all customers.

    Read more about electric vehicles from CNBC Pro
    Goldman Sachs just turned bearish on BMW and others — and Tesla could be to blame

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    “That’s our strategy and we’re sticking to it,” Toyoda, who has described himself as a “car guy or car nerd,” said in a recording of the remarks shown to reporters.


    Toyoda doubled down on company expectations that all-electric vehicle adoption will “take longer to become mainstream” than many think. He said it will be “difficult” to fulfill recent regulations that call for banning traditional vehicles with internal combustion engines by 2035, like California and New York have said they will adopt.

    Toyota executives, while increasing investments in all-electric vehicles, have argued such cars and trucks are one solution, not the solution, to meet tightening global emissions standards and achieve carbon neutrality. Toyota continues to invest in alternative solutions as well as hybrid vehicles such as the Prius, which combine EV technology with traditional internal combustion engines.

    [​IMG]
    WATCH NOW
    VIDEO02:46
    Toyota is in the best position to catch up with Tesla, says analyst

    The company has said its strategy is justified, as not all areas of the world will adopt EVs at the same pace due to the high cost of the vehicles as well as a lack of infrastructure.

    Toyota’s strategy has been criticized by environmental groups such as the Sierra Club and Greenpeace, which has ranked the Japanese automaker at the bottom of its auto-industry decarbonization ranking the past two years.

    Toyota plans to invest roughly $70 billion in electrified vehicles, including $35 billion in all-electric battery technologies over the nine years. It plans to offer about 70 electrified models globally by 2025.

    Toyota plans to sell about 3.5 million all-electric vehicles annually by 2030, which would only be around a third of its current annual sales.



    Toyota mulls reboot of its electric-vehicle strategy in bid to better compete in market - The Globe and Mail

    Toyota mulls reboot of its electric-vehicle strategy in bid to better compete in market
    NORIHIKO SHIROUZU
    REUTERS
    PUBLISHED OCTOBER 24, 2022
    FOR SUBSCRIBERS
    [​IMG]
    A Toyota logo at the 89th Geneva International Motor Show, in Geneva, Switzerland, on March 5, 2019.PIERRE ALBOUY/REUTERS

    35 COMMENTS
    LISTEN TO ARTICLE
    Toyota

    TM-N -1.10%decrease

    is considering a reboot of its electric-car strategy to better compete in a booming market it has been slow to enter, and has halted some work on existing EV projects, four people with knowledge of the still-developing plans said.


    The proposals under review, if adopted, would amount to a dramatic shift for Toyota and rewrite the $38-billion EV rollout plan the Japanese automaker announced last year to better compete with the likes of Tesla

    TSLA-Q -0.25%decrease

    A working group within Toyota has been charged with outlining plans by early next year for improvements to its existing EV platform or for a new architecture, the four individuals said.

    In the meantime, Toyota has suspended work on some of the 30 EV projects announced in December, which according to the sources and a document reviewed by Reuters include the Toyota Compact Cruiser crossover and the battery-electric Crown.

    Toyota said it was committed to carbon neutrality but declined to comment on specific initiatives.

    “In order to achieve carbon neutrality, Toyota’s own technology – as well as the work we are doing with a range of partners and suppliers – is essential,” the company said in response to questions from Reuters.

    The four sources declined to be identified because the plans have not been made public.

    The revamp under consideration could slow the rollout of EVs already on the drawing board. But it would also give Toyota a chance to compete with a more efficient manufacturing process, as industry-wide EV sales run past Toyota’s earlier projections.

    In addition, it would address criticism by green investors and environmental groups who argue that Toyota, once a darling of environmentalists, has been too slow to embrace EVs.

    As part of the review, Toyota is considering a successor to its EV-underpinning technology called e-TNGA, unveiled in 2019. That would allow Toyota to bring down costs, the people said.



    The first EV based on e-TNGA – the bZ4X crossover – hit the market earlier this year although its launch was marred by a recall that forced Toyota to suspend production from June. Production resumed earlier this month.

    The review was triggered in part by the realization by some Toyota engineers and executives that Toyota was losing the factory cost war to Tesla on EVs, the sources said.

    Toyota’s planning had assumed demand for EVs would not take off for several decades, the four people said.

    Toyota designed e-TNGA so that EVs could be produced on the same assembly line with gasoline cars and hybrids. That made sense based on the assumption Toyota would need to sell about 3.5 million EVs a year – roughly one-third of its current global volume – by 2030 to stay competitive, the sources said.

    But sales of EVs are growing faster. Automakers globally now forecast plans for EVs to represent more than half of total vehicle production by 2030, part of a wave of industry-wide investment that now totals $1.2-trillion.

    The person leading Toyota’s EV review is Shigeki Terashi, former chief competitive officer, according to six people with knowledge of the work, including two people close to Toyota. Terashi did not respond to a request for comment.

    Terashi’s team has been designated a “BR” or “business revolution” group within Toyota, a term used for major changes including a revamp of its development and production processes two decades ago.

    “What’s driving Mr Terashi’s effort is the EV’s faster-than-anticipated takeoff and rapid-fire adoptions of cutting-edge innovations by Tesla and others,” one of the people said.

    All six people declined to be named because of the confidential nature of the plans.

    Terashi’s team is considering an option to prolong e-TNGA’s usefulness by coupling it with new technologies, three of the sources said.

    Terashi could also propose to retire e-TNGA more quickly and opt for an EV-dedicated platform engineered from the ground up. That could take roughly five years for new models, two of the sources said. “There is little time to waste,” said one.

    Toyota is working with suppliers and considering factory innovations to bring down costs like Tesla’s Giga Press, a massive casting machine that has streamlined work in Tesla plants.

    One area under review is a more comprehensive approach to an EV’s thermal management – combining, for example, passenger air conditioning and electric powertrain temperature control – that Tesla has already mobilized, the sources said.

    This could allow Toyota to reduce the size and weight of an EV battery pack and cut costs by thousands of dollars per vehicle, making it a “top priority” for Toyota suppliers Denso and Aisin, one of the sources familiar with the matter said. Denso and Aisin had no immediate comment.

    The recognition within Toyota, the world’s biggest automaker, that Tesla has set a new benchmark for EV manufacturing costs marks a major reversal.

    A decade ago when Toyota took a stake in Tesla and the two collaborated to produce a battery-electric version of the RAV4, many Toyota engineers believed Tesla’s technology was no threat, two of the sources said.

    “They concluded back then there wasn’t much to learn,” one of the sources said.

    Toyota discontinued the electric RAV4 in 2014 and sold its stake in Tesla in 2017.

    By 2018, when Toyota finally set up a dedicated zero-emissions division and began building an e-platform, Tesla already had three models on the road.



    Or

    Toyota to ramp up battery-electric offerings, but will keep its options open, new CEO says - The Globe and Mail

    Toyota to ramp up battery-electric offerings, but will keep its options open, new CEO says
    TOKYO
    REUTERS
    PUBLISHED FEBRUARY 13, 2023
    [​IMG]
    Koji Sato, chief branding officer and CEO-designate of Toyota Motors, speaks during a news conference in Tokyo, on Feb. 13.YUICHI YAMAZAKI/AFP/GETTY IMAGES

    3 COMMENTS
    LISTEN TO ARTICLE
    Toyota Motor Corp

    TM-N -1.10%decrease

    will ramp up its battery-electric offerings by focusing on its Lexus luxury brand, its incoming chief executive said on Monday, but the company will not deviate from a long held strategy of exploring other technologies.


    The comments from Koji Sato, who takes over as the head of the world largest automaker from April 1, come as Toyota has pushed back against critics that have said it has been too slow to embrace battery-powered electric vehicles.

    Toyota, which popularized the hybrid technology of the Prius, has said that hybrids make better sense for many drivers, especially in markets where the infrastructure is not ready to support batteries. It has also championed hydrogen-powered cars as the future.

    Sato said Toyota would accelerate its battery-electric offerings by focusing on the Lexus.

    He was quick to point out, however, that this was not a big change in strategy and that Toyota would continue to focus on pursuing a number of different technologies in its drive towards carbon-neutral vehicles.

    “This is not a fast pivot towards battery EVs,” he said, adding that much of the problem stemmed from one of “communication” about Toyota’s strategy.

    “To the point that we have been slow at battery EV projects, I think around half of it is a communication issue,” he said.

    He said the company was sticking to a previous goal of selling 3.5 million battery-electric vehicles by 2030.

    He said there would be further communication in April about the strategy once his team assumed their roles.

    An engineer by training, Sato started his career at Toyota in 1992 before rising through the ranks to become chief engineer of Lexus International in 2016.

    While he oversaw the creation of Lexus’s first fully electric model, he has previously spoken of keeping open other options for powering vehicles.
     
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  10. Nntw

    Nntw Active Member

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    No insider info required.
     
  11. dbstoo

    dbstoo Senior Member

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    Emphasis mine. :)

    Quoting someone else who is "suggesting" that Toyota is not certain is not a presentation of fact. It's an opinion, just like my opinion or yours. If one reads the articles that are pasted into post #3341486 one will find so called "facts" such as this odd snippet from The Globe and Mail "Toyota is working with suppliers and considering factory innovations to bring down costs like Tesla’s Giga Press, a massive casting machine that has streamlined work in Tesla plants."

    That's odd, since part of the Nummi plant that Tesla bought from Toyota had a press line that was not included in the sale. The press line was shipped to another Toyota plant.

    Here is a another unsubstantiated claim that was in NNTW's copy and paste flurry. "A decade ago when Toyota took a stake in Tesla and the two collaborated to produce a battery-electric version of the RAV4, many Toyota engineers believed Tesla’s technology was no threat, two of the sources said."

    It's not valid to quote as "facts" the opinions of a journalist who is suggesting that Toyota's corporate direction today was guided by unknown sources today who believed that 10 years ago that some of the unnamed workers at Toyota felt that Tesla's tech posed no threat.

    Toyota's benefit from the collaboration with Tesla was the supply of larger batteries than they were able to source themselves due to a patent infringement settlement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_RAV4_EV#Chevron_patent_encumbrance). In essence, Toyota was allowed to produce the Prius using the smaller batteries but was not allowed to put large batteries in their cars until an unspecified period had passed. It's my guess that the 2017 Prius Prime was the direct result of the expiration of the patent settlement restrictions.

    For their part of the agreement, Tesla was able to get a large injection of cash from Toyota as well as access to the technology needed to make the next generation of their cars. As far as I could tell, Toyota did not need any of the Telsa technology. Much of Tesla's Fremont manufacturing capability was purchased from Toyota / NUMMI in May - August of 2010. ( Tesla Buys Nummi Assets - TheStreet)

    But long before that, I first rode in a RAV4EV at the Oakland airport in 2001. The airport security was using them to patrol the periphery of the airport. The car was made by Toyota, and the employee that I talked to said it was his preferred patrol vehicle... provided that it was charged by the previous shift. :) It was an eye opener to compare the pre 1997 control technology to the electronics in the Prius only 3 years later. The 1997 RAV4EV's speed control felt a lot like the golf carts of the age. It accelerated too fast from a dead stop, and was subject to "cogging" when driving slowly. The 2001 Prius, by comparison, accelerated smoothly and efficiently. It was able to switch between power sources smoothly without the driver noticing in most cases.

    It's my opinion that Toyota, with proven longevity and reliability, showcased the technology that convinced the world that BEVs could be successful if they were engineered properly. Further, I feel that it makes sense that Toyota was forced by that patent settlement into making some really great hybrids with fairly small batteries. Why throw that away just because they can now use the same batteries as their competitors?

    But that's my opinion based on some facts garnered here and there. Please note that I did not assert that any opinions were facts.
     
    #171 dbstoo, Apr 10, 2023
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2023
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  12. JoeBlack

    JoeBlack Member

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    For a change, a link to some review with short comparison to older PHV.
     
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  13. Stevevee

    Stevevee Active Member

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    Well their hinted rollout circa 2025 or 2026 seems to agree with you. Lucky for them people have been discovering hybrids like never before. I do see Toyota in need of a remake 2.0. I've been out looking at various vehicles because, well I always do in the Spring. From now on I'll not make rush judgements without actually driving the vehicles anymore.

    The Rav 4 is desperately in need of a new drivetrain. Very harsh and uncivilized compared to most of the real competition, and noise! We have the same drivetrain in a new Camry AWD and thankfully nowhere's near as harsh. I haven't been in a Corolla Cross yet to drive, but comparatively it's not a good rollout. Loss leader is FWD. Options are minimal and very spartan, and for $30k, you don't get a lot. When I speced out a couple of Mazdas, it was a tad embarrassing. Especially so when you drive them. I've heard that Mazda will be using the Toyota RAV4 drivetrain for their upcoming hybrid models, which would be very un Mazda-like as far as sophistication goes. Rav4 is their bread and butter, and I'm not sure how long that will last.

    The new Crown seems to be a very solid car, not spectacular, and you either think it's nice or ugly. The new Prius looks nice, but the lack of cargo room left it off my list.
     
  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    Same with me, but I have to see it in person
     
  15. Nntw

    Nntw Active Member

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  16. hans1

    hans1 Member

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    Going by the RAV4 Prime and Gen 4 Prius Prime, we can go about 85 mph in full EV mode before the ICE comes on, so guessing the same might be the case for the Gen 5 Prius Prime. Does make a big difference in EV range for either car, when trying to stay just below that threshold. For the Gen 4 Prius, a 30 mile range doing 65 mph on the highway, drops down to low 20 miles going 80+ mph [theoretically, :) ]
     
  17. Gokhan

    Gokhan Senior Member

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    Gen 5 Prius Prime owner's manual specifically recommends not to use the EV mode on the highway but only in the city at slow speeds, let alone at speeds over 80 mph. Prius Prime is not designed for highway driving in the EV mode, regardless of the ICE cut-in speed. You need a Tesla for highway EV driving, which will also get much better mpge due to its lower CdA.
     
  18. hyhi

    hyhi Member

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    Well, that is sad news…
     
  19. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    that's not good, does gen 4 manual recommend against it as well?

    why would toyota keep increasing the ev speed threshold?
     
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  20. Hammersmith

    Hammersmith Senior Member

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    Found something else some people aren't going to like(though it will only affect a tiny number of buyers). No tire chains allowed on the 19" wheels.

    But as for the highway speed issue, why are people thinking Toyota's recommendation is a bad thing? It's common sense. The effect of air resistance sharply increases as you go faster. The Prime is not a BEV with a huge(and heavy) battery. You start driving 80mph or more and that 40 mile range turns into 15 or 20 really quickly. It simply makes sense for Toyota to recommend using EV for 45ish mph and less while using HV for 60+mph(or just leaving it in Auto). Doesn't mean you can't run it up to 80mph on EV mode for shortish periods, but it's a waste of your battery range. Toyota doesn't say it will harm the hybrid system or anything, just that it's not efficient.*

    And, yes, that's word for word the same as the 2022 manual(except for the addition of the Auto EV/HV words).


    *I'm not positive, but I think the efficiency curves at high speeds favor ICE over battery - that's not just for Prius, but for everything. I think if you graph out mpg of an ICE at different speeds and then batt range of a BEV at different speeds, the batt range drops at a steeper rate on average compared to ICE. Just the nature of the respective systems. But I'd welcome hard data proving me right or wrong.
     
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