Featured 2023 Prius to launch plug-in hydrogen electric vehicle. Corolla to offer hydrogen combustion engine

Discussion in 'Prius, Hybrid, EV and Alt-Fuel News' started by JosephG, Sep 2, 2021.

  1. JosephG

    JosephG Active Member

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    Per Forbes:

    Toyota will be offering the next generation Prius as a hybrid hydrogen electric vehicle, battery electric for short trips such as commuting with a hydrogen fuel cell (presumably?) for longer trips. It appears this will be in addition to the next generation of the gasoline-electric hybrid system.

    The Corolla will be offered with the option of a more powerful turbocharged gasoline engine or, in 2023, a hydrogen internal combustion engine in an unknown configuration.
     
    #1 JosephG, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
  2. JosephG

    JosephG Active Member

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    Boy is the new category going to be a mouthful. Plug-in Fuel Cell Hybrid Electric Vehicle (PFCHEV?)

    I always thought this was the most logical solution for the next generation of transportation. Fuel cell vehicles already require a battery so allowing it to be plugged in for 20-50 miles of range only slightly increases cost while alleviating the infrastructure anxiety of going with hydrogen. (Actually, if you can reduce the number or size of hydrogen tanks, it might not increase the cost at all). Assuming trucks will run on hydrogen (the only real alternative right now is biofuels), fueling startions will have to be made on the interstates anyway and this eliminates the challenge and waste of putting multiple batteries big enough to give the land barges Americans love to drive reasonable range in every driveway and then parking them 90% of the time.

    The Corolla I don't understand. Hydrogen combustion engines are so inefficient they had to fill everything behind the front seats with tanks to make the hydrogen Yaris leaving no rear window. Unless they have some plan like a new hybrid configuration similar to Nissan's, I don't see it making much sense.
     
    #2 JosephG, Sep 2, 2021
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2021
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  3. Moving Right Along

    Moving Right Along Active Member

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    So the article told us Toyota does not currently have the battery supply to make large numbers of electric cars, and they believe hydrogen is better for the environment. I think that second point is debatable. Also, in the US at least, hydrogen stations are very rare and enormously expensive to build. So I don’t see these new hydrogen-powered models being anything more than a curiosity.
     
  4. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    2019 is not current. A lot has changed since then. Think about when the bZ brand was first revealed.

    Hydrogen will co-exist, period. With the necessity so high to replace fossil-fuel use in commercial & industry transport, it simply doesn't make any sense not extending fuel-cell availability to some personal transport as well. Consider how many fleet vehicles there are.

    The cold, hard reality of plugging in is that DC fast-charging still has a very long way to go. Jump on the PlugShare app. Look for CCS availability. Notice how few stations there actually are, how few plugs are offered, and how speeds faster than 50 kW are quite rare.

    If we want to reach the wide variety of markets out there, you can't just push a single technology. I visited Tanzania in June, where a large portion of non-commercial 4-wheel vehicles are Toyotas. The fact that they recognize their own customer need is vital. Go somewhere like that for perspective on what a lot of the non-industrialized world must deal with. They have many challenges and plugging in is far from being a priority.

    Toyota has a diversified business. They will sell many fuel-cells for commercial use. Hydrogen will become available for those uses. It's renewable & decentralized. That's a really big deal. Who cares what the narrative is. We'll still get plug-in choices here.
     
  5. privilege

    privilege Active Member

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    good thing the hydrogen fuel cell will be intended for long distance trips...

    because you're going to need long distance trip ability to FIND a hydrogen station.


    still waiting for the day when Toyota recognizes diesel as the optimal engine for hybrids.

    hydrogen is a pipe dream.
     
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  6. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I can see a contest:
    • 1st prize - hydrogen Prius
    • 2nd prize - two hydrogen Prius
    Sorry, old joke but I'm still smiling.

    Bob Wilson
     
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  7. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Diesel is only optimal in certain use cases, one of which Toyota does recognize. There is a model in the works to fulfill that need.
     
  8. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    What a load of nonsense
     
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  9. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    Earlier reports are that the Prius is getting a hydrogen engine, not a fuel cell.

    If hydrogen needed demand to support it, the question is why wait until now to offer hydrogen engine cars? They would have been a lot cheaper than fuel cell ones.

    Yes a plug in fuel cell would make sense, and it has been discussed here in the past. When asked about one earlier, Toyota said a plug in model wouldn't create enough demand for hydrogen to support the growing refueling network.

    Hydrogen tanks take up a lot of space no matter what system is 'burning' it. The FCEV Clarity has less trunk space, with no pass through, than the PHEV model. They are also heavy, and with extra structural reinforcement to protect them, don't have much of a weight advantage over a BEV.

    Hydrogen might work out for commercial using. It might not. Shipping is looking towards methanol and ammonia as green fuels. There are already renewable methanol production facilities for methanol ships.

    Then there is the fact that we already make heavy use of hydrogen. Ammonia is a big one right now, and we need that to feed people. Then carbon free steel will need hydrogen. Switching those industrial uses to green will take most of any green hydrogen production than happens. Transportation will likely be left with black hydrogen. Blue may happen, but delaying fossil fuel carbon release through sodas isn't much help.

    Hydrogen refueling stations need a lot of electricity to compress and chill the hydrogen. That is a big part of why a BEV can go further on a green kWh than a FCEV. If a nation doesn't have the infrastructure for chargers, how will they have it for hydrogen? Or will they have to live slow hydrogen refueling, which can take hours.
     
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  10. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    Decentralization is key. Shipping empty tanks to remote sites for hydrogen storage is more realistic than setting up massive battery-banks.
     
  11. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Member

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    Hydrogen will get used for trucking. In the early diesel days, you filled up at a truck browser. It looks Toyota will release a diesel hybrid in some markets. Also recent patents indicate they investigating ways to reduce diesel emissions and reduce reliance on DPF's.
     
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  12. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    Unfortunately, it's too late. Elon and Tesla pushing BEVs has caused everyone else to have to follow. The billions spent on DC fast chargers should have been spent on locally-produced hydrogen stations. It wasn't. Now it's too late and that means we don't have the hydrogen infrastructure we need to properly handle the switch to renewables in all sectors. BEVs probably set that switch back 10 or 20 years. But we're stuck with them now and will have to start from scratch to handle the switch in other sectors.
     
  13. Richard2005

    Richard2005 Member

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    The cynical answer would be ... so Toyota can now say that their ICE has zero emissions (except for a small amount of NOx). Puts pressure on 'ICE bans' which would then need to be qualified.
     
    #13 Richard2005, Sep 2, 2021
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  14. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    not enough batteries, but plenty of hydrogen stations o_O
     
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  15. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    is toyota still supplying the world with hydrogen made from cow poop?
     
  16. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    ...are a tiny drop in a massive bucket we still need to fill.

    Notice how no one talks about the $120 Billion we spend on fossil-fuel subsidies?
     
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  17. mikefocke

    mikefocke Prius v Three 2012, Avalon 2011

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    Maybe for small island nations this makes sense while to people used to US and CA distances not so much.
     
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  18. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    What you see here is in no way representative of the rest of the world. Heck, even within the US the situation varies significantly.
     
  19. Lee Jay

    Lee Jay Senior Member

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    The problem is, with dozens of new BEVs coming out in the next year or two, there's no momentum to fill this one, just the DC fast charger one.
     
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  20. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

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    That doesn't address the issue that the hydrogen station is going to need a lot of decentralized electricity to make hydrogen, and then compress it to massive pressures, so it can be used as transportation fuel.

    Of course, we are assuming water supply isn't an issue at the location.
    In the early hybrid days, Ford had two diesel hybrid concepts that met the cleanest emission standards of the time. I recall some reports on the Ford and Toyota deal over hybrid patents mention Toyota getting access Ford patents on diesels and emissions in exchange.

    Hydrogen infrastructure for transportation has a high cost. Doing it just for trucking is lower cost than for personal vehicles, but it still will be expensive. Maybe more than expected, as a hydrogen truck will likely have a shorter range than a diesel one. I can see advocates underestimating the cost. They have done so with the hydrogen stations we now have.

    Did you mean Australian brown coal?;) I think that only goes to Japan.

    Japan is also getting hydrogen from the Middle East. In the form of ammonia.
     
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