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4 gal E85, 5.6 gal E10, 2.5 gal E10

Discussion in 'Gen 3 Prius Technical Discussion' started by bwilson4web, Jan 26, 2013.

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  1. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    I am interested in the maximum ethanol percentage that our ZVW30 can use. So tonight I filled up when the 'low fuel' indicator came on. Previous testing had verified we have a 12.1 gallon tank:
    • 4 gal, E85 + 8.1 gal, E10 ~= 4.21 gal ethanol
    • 4.21 / 12.1 ~= E35
    My expectation is it will take a maximum, acceleration, hill climb before it throws a code.

    Cost:
    • $3.129/gal - E10
    • $2.929/gal - E85 - saved $0.80 on fill-up, $0.80/($11.72+$17.53) = 2.7%
    Perhaps someone would like to calculate the change in the fuel cost/mile?

    For now, want to find out how much ethanol the ZVW30 can handle before it throws an error. I will contact Toyota in Brazil as well as look for Toyota/Prius owner forums to find out what they are doing.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #1 bwilson4web, Jan 26, 2013
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  2. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    I have run 'em at E57 I believe with no codes; it's been a while. There are so many ethanol haters on here that I learned to keep experiments to myself. All I can say is Prius loves running on that stuff ;) I don't think the general PC crowd will give you any troubles as you are a very well respected member. I'm considered an outsider by most [​IMG]

    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #2 WE0H, Jan 26, 2013
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  3. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks!
    Which models?

    I like the idea of stepping up to E50 and skipping the E40 series.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #3 bwilson4web, Jan 26, 2013
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  4. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    3rd Gen Liftback 2010 thru 2012 ;)

    Mike

    Gotta be careful as some here have said the tank and fuel lines will melt away as well as your motor will mysteriously fail leaving you with a worthless pile of scrap with a voided warranty. Also there is such a massive lower energy content in alcohol that your Prius will now get terrible fuel mileage [​IMG]

    Monitoring the short & long term fuel trim tells a lot how well the Prius software adapts to different fuel. I have a feeling those injectors are kind'a high flow for a stock motor.

    Mike [​IMG]
     
    #4 WE0H, Jan 26, 2013
  5. tumbleweed

    tumbleweed Senior Member

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    Keep up the good work Bob & WEOH. With all the bad info floating around about E(anything) I'm glad someone is doing a little research on the subject. All we have in my area so far is E10.
     
    #5 tumbleweed, Jan 26, 2013
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  6. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Prius even likes 105 octane [​IMG]

    Mike
     
    #6 WE0H, Jan 26, 2013
  7. szgabor

    szgabor Active Member

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    I do understand and appreciate being "inquisitive", but saving .80 on a fillup and having 46.7 mpg ... I wonder how many hundreds of miles you drive a day to worth this ... :) (irony)

    But surely love to know how far to go is safe ... when "cellulotic" ethanol becomes more common I would do this for the environmental cause ... for now .. just save money not worth it FOR ME.

    cheers.
     
    #7 szgabor, Jan 26, 2013
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  8. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Prius gets much higher mpg's than 46.7 on E57, especially when driven nice ;)

    Mike
     
    #8 WE0H, Jan 26, 2013
  9. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Thanks!
    Perfect but you bring up something I had not considered, the fuel injectors are probably sized for Otto cycle engines of the same displacement. But in our Atkinson cycle engines operate a shorter cycle.

    I share your thinking. Switching suddenly from straight or E10 to E85 is likely to fail as the fuel trim can not adjust that fast. But by a series of steps, we can probably shift the long term, fuel trip to get the car up to or very close to E85.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #9 bwilson4web, Jan 26, 2013
  10. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    The software appears to be written to handle a huge change in injector pulse width. I don't recall the technical language. Maybe something like MAP window is wide? I wouldn't be surprised to find out that it can handle pure 105 octane with no software mods. My car is in storage for the winter so I can't do any additional testing at the moment. In a couple or three months though ;) Do you happen to know what material the injector pintle's are made of? I hope I am speaking correct. It's been a while since I have done any research :)

    Someone also mentioned long ago that unplugging the ECU or disconnecting the 14v battery will reset the long term fuel trim so the ECU can start out in learn mode again. Will it kick out a code right away or just learn to adapt to a 'new' fuel right away? I never tried that as I didn't need to. I could do that to see if my long term fuel trim resets to zero. The last I recall it was at -21. I'd have to power up my car to check that. I can do that tonight if you like. Gotta head out for lunch. I do remember my car was running excessively rich the last time I drove it last fall. I set it a couple clicks leaner but haven't had a chance to test it as the snow/salt season unexpectedly arrived the next day :(

    Mike
     
    #10 WE0H, Jan 26, 2013
  11. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Hi Mike,
    I don't know the material but fully understand your climate.

    I had not considered a power-OFF, reset of the controller. I may do that after doing a little more research. Sad to say, my miniscanner has a 9-pin connector and I know I'll have to make an adapter to record the data (Darn!) So I'll hookup the AutoEnginuity and see what we get. Then I'm off to climb the mountain, an initial test.

    As I was driving around tonight, I realized the coldest, night air will have maximum density. So a hill-climb at minimum temperature will put the injectors at their worst case.

    I appreciate the offer and always grateful for offers to help. Whatever makes sense works for me.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #11 bwilson4web, Jan 26, 2013
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  12. bwilson4web

    bwilson4web BMW i3 and Model 3

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    Last night, I ran the Brindley Mountain climb test with the NHW11. I was planning to use the Graham miniscanner but forgot I need an adapter to connect the serial cable. So I switched to the AutoEnginuity and recorded what I could to generate this graph:
    [​IMG]
    First impressions:
    • Long term, fuel trim varies during drive operation - it looks more driven by the short-term variation and not something that might follow the fuel type in the tank. My new understanding is the long term is in effect the mixture setting. So the E29 (calculated) has resulted in nearly an 11% increase in the average pulse width at normal power range. During the maximum power event, the fuel trim has gone ~8%.
    • Fuel enrichment cooling - we know the 1.5L, NHW11 mitigates exhaust temperature by enriching the mixture and this is evident in the short term, fuel trim. Unexpected, the spark is retarded too.
    • Use of spark advance and long term fuel trim to find peak BSFC - unexpected, it looks like mapping the maximum spark advance may be a better way to find the peak, fuel efficiency rpm range in combination with long term, fuel trim.
    I need to replicate this data with the ZVW30 but my initial impression is long term, fuel trim may not follow the tank but follows the current drive cycle. I understand this is saved for the next start and may be the 'missing link' for the cold-start, 1.8L engine start knock.

    Bob Wilson
     
    #12 bwilson4web, Jan 27, 2013
  13. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    On the PIP gas cap it's says up to E10 only with a circle and a line through E15-E85. I'm wondering if it has something to do with the EVAP system since on a PIP, you don't do a fuel fill, you do a fuel request for a fill.
     
    #13 El Dobro, Jan 27, 2013
  14. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    It says the same on the '12 Liftback and RAV4 & Sienna. Looks like a universal gas cap :)

    Mike
     
    #14 WE0H, Jan 27, 2013
  15. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Does your 12 still have a lever on the floor to release the filler door, or does it have a button on the dash that starts a timer?
     
    #15 El Dobro, Jan 27, 2013
  16. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Floor lever pops the gas filler lid open :) The timer must be a PiP thing?

    Mike
     
    #16 WE0H, Jan 27, 2013
  17. El Dobro

    El Dobro A Member

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    Yea, the car prepares itself to accept fuel.
     
    #17 El Dobro, Jan 27, 2013
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  18. Paradox

    Paradox Prius Enthusiast / Moderator
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    The Prius Plug-in has a new low-pressure fuel-vapor containment tank system which releases pressure in the tank for the engine to consume the generated vapor. That's why the PiP has a button to pop open the fuel door and 'prepare' the car for a fill up instead of just the floor-cable-lever in other Prius.
     
    #18 Paradox, Jan 27, 2013
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  19. WE0H

    WE0H Senior Member

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    Ultra low emissions :cool: Mine smells like a bottle of Everclear when I pop the cap off [​IMG]

    Mike
     
    #19 WE0H, Jan 27, 2013
  20. tankyuong

    tankyuong Senior Member

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    1/4 of e85 doesnt throw codes
     
    #20 tankyuong, Jan 27, 2013
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