4th generation coming 2015!

They know they aren't or they wouldn't have fudged. That either shows a character trait of incompetence or dishonesty... Not sure which, if not both.

Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

That would indeed be an interesting option...
They can't sit forever on old tried and true technology though while the riskier more expensive takes over.

I suppose that's always the story with old tried and true... It's only good until better comes along for cheaper given the same performance.

It's a bit deceptive in that our prices do creep up, but we keep getting better in place of it.

We would have never had the hybrid prius of today if Toyota hadn't stepped away from the tried and true to be a forerunner.

The hungriest dog fights hardest for the bone.

Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

Oxymoron.

NiMh can absorb the charge quicker than a typical Lithium battery. There are some Lithium battery chemistry that may be able to as well but they lose the other advantage of Lithium (energy density and weight). Yea, cost is another sticking point.

 

I wonder how they are comparing that?

Lithium is smaller and denser and holds more energy for a given size, I have found it to be more efficient in discharging as well is charging but maybe my experience is skewed.

I have a 550 cold cranking amps shorai motorcycle battery on my motorcycle and it charges quite quickly as well as the discharge is easy also to deliver the punch .
And its true there are several lithium types out there now it wouldn't take much to change the chemistry once again and have even more benefits.


Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

NiMH in gen3 Prius can recharge from "empty" to "full" (no bar to 8 full bars) in about a minute. That's the nature of HV application and demand from a small pack.

A123 LiFe cells and Toshiba lithium titanate may come close (5 mins?) but I am not sure if they'll be able to maintain that toward high SOC or in cold weather. I believe they are about half as energy densed as a typical laptop lithium-ion batteries.

Is your 550 cold cranking amps shorai motorcycle battery lead acid or Lithium? I found a model that uses LiFe but it does not say CCA. Warranty is 2 years, far from automotive grade/requirement.

As Tideland Prius mentioned, Toyota has HV Lithium pack they put in the Prius+ (Alpha). They are higher power (not energy) version of the more energy densed cells in PiP. Sanyo offers 5Ah HV cells and 20Ah PHV/EV cells. They are tuned for both applications as power and energy are a trade-off.

 

Mine is lithium... Pm me if you need the exact specs.

But the prius NiMh from 1 bar to full, is actually a pretty small battery when you consider 1 bar is still 30 percent or so... Maybe 40..i can't remember and full bars is not full either, there is still another 20 percent or so to full.

Meaning, there isn't that much your having to charge.

Now compare that with a lithium of which they have programmed to use much more of the batteries capacity, plus it's bigger and more dense meaning there is quite a bit more storage capacity your charging.

I don't know if my facts are straight but you get the idea.

Would be interesting to know if they charged at the same rate of current and what the total capacity of each battery was full too.

Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

I can't tell, do you like lithium, Alan?

 

I believe Prius Alpha (Japan) has 1 kWh Lithium so it is 0.31 kWh less than NiMH -- Lithium-ion has wider usable SOC. I think it is about 20 lbs lighter and a bit smaller so it was moved inside the center armrest. That gave room for the third row in the back. Very clever.

If I recall, the 3rd row option with Lithium pack costs $4-5k more. What comes down to is.... for the benefits it offers, is it worth it?

 

Certainly for my household items... Much more robust power without wavering throughout the whole duty cycle.
I've had numerous NiMh batteries just kinda loose their magic, especially when I used them to replace my nicad I'm my solar lights around my house... Some of that could be the solar cells them self.

We see them used in all the highest tech devices now from computers to smartphones, heavy duty commercial hand tools . etc.

The only place I don't see them is where weight is not a big consideration and cost is on the table.

My son's prius did have his NiMh go our in his prius at about 185000 miles.
I blame some of that on his aggressive driving.
But it was easily replaceable with one from a junkyard for 400 bucks plus another 400 to put it in by the dealer.

So I'm not super freaked out at the prospect of having a lithium bank go bad as people wreck cars everyday.

Tesla uses 7000 18650 cells... Such a massive bank would cost a tad.. However I think it's easy to simply replace the bad cell and move on... Dont know how much tesla would charge to go that though.

But Toyota isn't considering such a massive bank anyway.. Theirs would be much cheaper.



Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

True, too bad we can't tap into more of that battery since we carry it around anyway

Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

Personally I think the solution is pretty simple. If you really have to have a lithium, buy a PiP. I think Toyota probably knows what is better than a few schmucks like us on the internet. Yes, energy density and all that is better in a lithium, we get that. There are other variables at play here, however. And I think Toyota knows far better what is best than we do regarding this.

 

I agree the pip is better suited to take advantage of a lithium system.

I think the NiMh is excellent for short term storage.

But even the regen benefits blossom when there is a bigger bank to send to and draw from regardless of battery type.
Using only the center portion of the duty cycle with NiMh makes increasing the size prohibitive concerning weight, room to put it, and even cost.

It is what it is.

The future is most likely going to have pip written on it for sure!

Alan.. Sent with Tapatalk 2

 

Something tells me Alan is moving to Wyoming...Massive deposit of lithium found in Wyoming could meet all U.S. demand : TreeHugger

 

Are you kidding? Hey, this is Priuschat

 

Here is what I think:

NiMh is the more suitable for a regular hybrid.

Lithium-ion is more suitable for plugin hybrid or EV.

As for short or long term, I think hybrids are here to stay. It is now mainstream and plugins are still up in the air (looking at the sales).

When (not if) the price of Lithium battery drops, it should finally replace the NiMh. Keep in mind that NiMh price can drop further also, depending on the rare earth metal situation.

 

NiMh is only suitable for Toyota and Honda hybrids because they own enough IP that NiMh is very cheap to them. Everybody else is already on lithium because NiMh would be an expensive, inferior dead end.

Toyota won't replace NiMh soon and are likely hoping they never have to: cheap lithium batteries would imply cheap plug-ins and their hybrid market would collapse.