'6 mile Pure Electric Maximum Range' vs 11 Mile EV range

Discussion in 'Gen 1 Prius Plug-in 2012-2015' started by avisriv, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. avisriv

    avisriv New Member

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    Could the esteemed forum members provide any clarification to Toyota's stated "Up to 6 miles in electric only' and '11 miles in combined electric and gasoline'? I always thought that I was getting 11 or so miles in pure electric (EV) mode after a full charge. Does this mean that pure electric is only achieved when I see the 999 mpg readout? I usually see a 200+ mpg readout after my 7 mile commute in EV mode. I guess that means that even though I thought I was driving on electric only, I was actually using gas also (never saw the ICE kick-in though?!!).

    If the PIP only has a true electric range of 6 miles (as stated by Toyota on the sticker), where does put other plug-ins such as the Ford CMax Energi with their stated 21 mile electric range? Is the CMax 21 mile EV range comparable to the 11 mile PIP EV range (i.e. a mix of electric+Gas) or more to the 6 mile pure electric of the PIP?

    Although I would be a bit disappointed with only a 6-mile electric range, I suppose I should just focus on the combined MPG and forget about the daily game of maximizing the EV miles I get. It seems that the EV miles is just a sham and we would be better off with just two modes Pure Electric (6 miles) and then Hybrid (500+ miles).

    Thanks for any comments and insights.
     
  2. Electric Charge

    Electric Charge Active Member

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    I don't understand it myself either, I have done 13 miles in pure EV (display reading 999), averaging 11 miles every day (without the engine turning on once), but from what I can tell, it's an EPA thing.
     
  3. rogerv

    rogerv Senior Member

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    Ditto. I routinely get 14 miles w/o ICE assist. The CMax Energi seems so similar in specs, so why is it rated so high? Does this mean I could expect to double my electric-only miles using a CMax Energi to more than 40 in the same routine driving as I do with my PiP? I hadn't even heard the 6 mile figure until the Ford claims started showing up in magazines, so went back and looked at the Maroney sticker for my PiP, and sure enough, 6 miles it is in electric mode. Maybe some of the guys here with engineering backgrounds can shed some light.:confused:
    The only thing I can come up with is that in the EPA test somehow they accelerate steadily, w/o any regen, and the EV is gone in six miles. But that doesn't explain how the Energi would go more than three times that far. I wonder how the EPA rates the Volt.
     
  4. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    You are in EV-only mode as long as the green EV light on the left side of the main driver display is lit. If you are seeing less than 999 mpg for "consumption" then that probably means you burned some gas at some point.

    The gas engine can start up in cold weather for a variety of reason listed in other threads here.
    If the heater is disabled by turning the fan off and the weather isn't that cold (especially 50F and over) then the engine will usually only start "prematurely" if you aggressively accelerate from slower speeds, if you moderately accelerate at highway speeds, or if you drive over 62-64 mph.

    The ford Energi versions of the C-MAX and Fusion have bigger batteries, electric heaters, are less prone to start the engine during acceleration and can stay in EV up to 82 mph.

    The Chevy Volt, with the largest PHEV battery, is the least prone to start the engine while there is usable charge remaining in the battery. It will not start the engine due to acceleration or speed but may start it at ambient temperatures under 15F or on rare occasions (every 6 weeks) in order to lubricate the engine or avoid excessively stale gasoline (average age over 12 months).
     
  5. bisco

    bisco cookie crumbler

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    i can't speak for the window sticker, but most people here are getting between 8-16 miles pure ev. real life is different than epa testing. if you show less than 999, the ice came on for some amount of time. if you reset evdr1 or 2, it will tell you how many miles were in ev and how many in hv.
     
  6. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    You would probably get upper-20's in an Energi or roughly twice what you get in the PiP. In the Volt you would get close to 4x what you get in the PiP.

    The PiP is limited by the maximum power output of its smaller battery. The EPA test has an acceleration at the 6 mile mark that the PiP is not able to handle without the assistance of the gas engine. I think the Energi is able to avoid the engine start because its larger battery can supply more power (kW) to the electric motor. The Volt has an even larger battery and can accelerate at full power up to its top speed of 100 mph without the gas engine.
     
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  7. priuskitty

    priuskitty PIP FAN

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    If you drive 62mph then EV will only be 6 miles

    M729 ? 2
     
  8. rogerv

    rogerv Senior Member

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    Thanks for the anwers, guys. It makes sense if in the EPA test they do something like accelerating to 62 and staying at that speed until the EV is gone. I've never done that, switching instead to HV for freeway trips, as discussed in other threads. The difference in size for the batteries for the PiP and the Energi didn't seem like that much to me. It will be interesting if we get some of those owners on here with real world results. I understand about the Volt battery being larger, but does anyone know what the actual rating is from the EPA tests?
     
  9. rogerv

    rogerv Senior Member

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    Some things I found interesting at this link: New Plug-in Hybrids (you have to select midsize cars) are that the annual operating costs for the C-Max Energi and the PiP are the same, at $900 along with the Fusion Plug-in. Also, the PiP is shown as 11 miles compared to 21 for the Energi for electric + gas range. And on the page explaining the info on the window sticker, number 13, all electric range, is combined city/highway driving. It would be interesting to see the actual window sticker on the C-Max Energi. Could the Ford press corps be comparing apples and oranges?
     
  10. CharlesH

    CharlesH CA HOV Decal #5 on former PiP

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    At 6 miles the EPA test has a simulated "hill" which requires more power than the PiP battery can provide, and thus the ICE kicks in to supply the needed power. If the "hill" had been at 3 miles, then the EPA test would have reported 3 miles pure EV. If it had been at 10 miles, the test would have reported 10 pure EV miles. So the "6 miles of pure EV" is a meaningless figure, an artifact of how the test is defined.

    As others have pointed out, the PiP was designed first and foremost to be a very efficient hybrid, with the plug-in feature being a way to make the hybrid functionality even more efficient. OTOH, the Volt was designed primarily as an EV, with a not-particularly-efficient ICE as a range extender. So in the PiP, use of the ICE and the electric motor are combined in a manner the system considers it to be optimal in a given situation; running the ICE is not considered "bad".

    Different objectives, neither inherently better or worse than the other.
     
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  11. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    I think the EPA test just triggers the gas engine to start about 6 miles into the test but the engine turns back off soon afterwards and most or all of the remaining test is EV. The test only burns about 0.02 gallons of gas (about a mile's worth at 50 mpg).

    The 2013 Volt is rated at 38 miles EV with its 16.5 kWh battery. The 2012 and 2012 Volt models are rated at 35 miles with a 16 kWh battery.
     
  12. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    At the 6-mile mark, the engine is triggered due to the circumstances of that particular test.

    With my particular morning commute, this was the outcome on a day with near ideal conditions...
    [​IMG]

    In other words, the estimated resulting from EPA criteria really doesn't tell the whole story. It just provides a standardized number for a basis of comparison.
     
  13. avisriv

    avisriv New Member

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    Many thanks to everyone who responded. I think I understand this much better now and am somewhat relieved that my PIP can actually do better than 6 mi on pure EV given the right conditions. I completely agree with the notion that we should see the PIP as 'a very efficient hybrid' overall rather than focus on maximizing the EV part. Still I am amazed at some of the members reporting higher than 13 miles of EV (even 16.6!). Wow! Maybe one special day ... I'll be lucky enough to go past 11 mi with 999MPG!
     
  14. lensovet

    lensovet Not your typical youngin :)/BP Brigade 207

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    i just want to point out that this is flat out WRONG. even in EV mode, ICE may kick on and EV LIGHT WILL STAY ON.

    The ONLY way to determine if your ICE has turned on is to look at the HSI display and look at the car icon in the center. if it is green with the letters EV inside, ICE is not running. if it is black with only a green outline, ICE is on.

    end of story.
     
  15. john1701a

    john1701a Prius Guru

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    EV-Mode Engine Off:
    [​IMG]

    EV-Mode Engine On:
    [​IMG]
     
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  16. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    Ok, but I was only half wrong. Any startup of the gas engine is very likely (almost certain?) to result in losing the "999" mpg level. And you are quoting one paragraph out of four in my original post so that makes me only 1/8 flat out WRONG. :)
     
  17. JacquesTutite

    JacquesTutite Junior Member

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    If you want a car that predictably runs on electric only, for any amount of miles, without using the ICE, you don't want a PIP. I own one, that's my opinion.

    The ICE goes on for a multitude of reasons covered on this site, and it's way too much work to constantly be figuring out how to drive on eggshells, to try to keep the engine off.

    Look at a Volt, Leaf, or the holy grail, Tesla (if you've got the money, and before Tesla runs out of theirs).
     
  18. Jeff N

    Jeff N The answer is 0042

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    At least in my climate of 37F+ winter temperatures and with a semi-heated garage (55F+), I found it pretty easy to stay in EV and avoid starting the gas engine as long as you keep the heater off. My only problem would have been driving over 62 mph but I don't often do that anyway and even that wouldn't seem to be a problem in the Ford Energi plugins.
     
  19. rogerv

    rogerv Senior Member

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    Per an article about the Detroit Auto Show intros in today's online edition of AutoWeek, the Ford Fusion Energi gets the same 21 miles on EV as the C-Max Energi. But the same article credits the PiP with 11 EV miles, rather than the 6 previously stated by Autoweek and other sources. "Hmmm... veddy, veddy intervesting........."o_O Trying to compare the EPA numbers with what the manufacturers pick to publish is like herding cats. Er, "kitties" with apologies to PriusKitty. :p
    And when the car mag editors/testers get hold of the cars, since they understandably aren't interested much in hypermiling, their numbers won't tell us much either. (Sigh)
     
  20. lensovet

    lensovet Not your typical youngin :)/BP Brigade 207

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    Lol yes. I was lazy to trim your quote completely.
     
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