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A grisly question

Discussion in 'Fred's House of Pancakes' started by addlepated, Apr 17, 2005.

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  1. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    Well, DC has drawbacks as well. From Tony Kupholdt's All About Circuits textbook:
    But he goes on to echo what you said about the effects of AC's frequency on puliminary fibrilation. I.e., both are nasty.
     
    #21 bookrats, Apr 17, 2005
  2. Frank Hudon

    Frank Hudon Senior Member

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    I got the bristiling hair and twitching one day when I was out at the back of the shop gouging off some stub shafts. 28Volts DC and 400 amps when one of the dummies I work with hit me with the steam cleaner. The Corona was pretty impressive, I wasn't impressed at all. There is now a lockout on the steamer, just for dummies.
    Gouging involves high amperage DC to strike and hold an arc and compressed air to blow away the puddle of molten metal.
     
    #22 Frank Hudon, Apr 17, 2005
  3. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon\";p=\"82176)</div>
    Frank:

    I'm surprised that's all you got. This is where a change of underwear comes in *very* handy.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon\";p=\"82176)</div>
    Maybe that's why he operates the steam cleaner and not anything else more dangerous? I suppose you could swap jobs with him, spray him, and see how he likes it. Though I'm willing to bet his brain is so eroded by drugs that he won't even notice it.

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Frank Hudon\";p=\"82176)</div>
    Yeah, which is why you'll never ever catch *me* doing that! I have a lot of respect for DC welding equipment. I can make simple repairs at the hobby farm, but will never do anything more complex/dangerous.

    Jay
     
    #23 jayman, Apr 18, 2005
  4. DanMan32

    DanMan32 Senior Member

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    A bit of elctrical lesson folks, it takes voltage over resistance to create current. It is the current that kills you, and it takes less than an amp, though I forget the # of milliamps.

    E=VR or I=E/R. R is YOU! If you have dry skin then R will be in the megaohms. If you are wet, then R will be in the kilo-ohms. Of course if the power source has a high internal resistance, it will not be able to deliver harmful current, even if the voltage was high. The effective voltage across your body would drop under load. V in the formula, when determining danger is V across you, not anywhere else in the circuit path.

    The other factor is whether the path trhough the body from entrance to exit passes through the heart.
     
    #24 DanMan32, Apr 18, 2005
  5. rflagg

    rflagg Member

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    IIRC, DanMan, from Mythbusters knowledge, I believe it's only like, 40 milliamps? Someone correct me if I'm wrong - but the show frequently uses ballistics gel and paddles placed a bit apart to read the milliamps across it, and I believe if it goes over 40, the 'person' is registered as killed.

    -m.
     
    #25 rflagg, Apr 18, 2005
  6. Godiva

    Godiva AmeriKan Citizen

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    I am not be an electrical engineer....

    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(DanMan32\";p=\"82300)</div>
    Well, that's why I said to use both hands and lick them first.

    I have a healthy respect for electricity. My Dad is an electrical engineer. Then again....I've heard him curse a few times......
     
    #26 Godiva, Apr 18, 2005
  7. addlepated

    addlepated New Member

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    #27 addlepated, Apr 18, 2005
  8. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    :lol:

    Good video! The "best friend" looked like he just about s*** himself when the character pretended to get electrocuted. At least he threw his banana at him.
     
    #28 jayman, Apr 18, 2005
  9. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    Ok trivia buffs.

    It's not the current or the volts that kill you....ok, they can, but that's not the only factor.

    a very low power current affecting the heart at the right phase of the heart's electrical cycle can be enough to cause it to fibrillate...essentially stopping it cold.

    One technique for resusitating a cardiac arrest patient is a solid blow to the sternum with your fist. This creates approximately 5 Joules and can be enough to reset the cardiac cycle to normal. Likewise, a blow to the heart at the right time can cause a normal cardiac cycle to go into fibrillation and cause cardiac arrest. Sometimes these young healthy people playing basket ball or something take a shot to the chest with the ball and go down...that's what's happening.

    Thus, the low current/low voltage deaths you've heard of are often because of it's affects on the heart rhythm. The ultra high voltage/high current shocks often cook internal organs (depending upon their conductivity) including the Central nervous system and lead to death before the heart is severely affected. More often it's a combination as the AC current makes it impossible to release (muscle twitch cycles are slower than a standard 60Hz cycle thus it's physically impossible to voluntarily release....so it just keeps cooking even after you've gone unconscious.

    Ok...what's the next grizzly topic you'd like me to describe?
     
    #29 efusco, Apr 18, 2005
  10. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    For more info:

    http://www.emedicine.com/emerg/topic162.htm

    You'll have to register, but it's worth while as this entire site is a great resource...it's where I go at work when I have a question...rarely crack a book any more.
     
    #30 efusco, Apr 18, 2005
  11. bookrats

    bookrats New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco\";p=\"82418)</div>
    How to Convert Your Prius Power Splitter Into A Meat Grinder.

    :mrgreen:
     
    #31 bookrats, Apr 18, 2005
  12. Frank Hudon

    Frank Hudon Senior Member

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    Jeff your sick and need help. Doc you got a patient here that needs some work done on him.
     
    #32 Frank Hudon, Apr 18, 2005
  13. addlepated

    addlepated New Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bookrats\";p=\"82458)</div>
    :crazyeyes:
     
    #33 addlepated, Apr 18, 2005
  14. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(efusco\";p=\"82418)</div>
    Evan:

    Okey dokey, how about:

    1. Human vs Industrial auger drive

    2. Human vs Unanticipated Pinch Point

    3. Human vs Fork Lift (AKA Human Sheesh Kabob)

    4. Human vs Industrial Table Saw

    I've personally witnessed all four. Point #3 is really neat, I didn't know that human guts could burst out like that. Just like popping a deer at highway speeds.

    I also know that with Point #1, a human forearm will only wrap so many times around the auger before it detaches at the elbow or from the shoulder socket.

    Point #2 is a perfect example of what happens when a person doesn't pay attention. Imagine a 3 ft diameter access cover into a 15,000 gal tank. There are like 50 bolts that hold the hatch to the flange, and each bolt is like 1 inch in diameter. You need to use a 1 inch drive impact gun to have any hope of getting the bolts off.

    So the worker is putting the bolts back on and isn't paying attention. His thumb is between the bolt head and the flange when he puts the socket on the nut and zaps it down. By the time he realizes his thumb is pinched flat, it's too late.

    Though now he is literally stuck there and is in too much pain to flip the impact gun to reverse to back off the bolt. If you watch the security tape, you see him screaming and crying until somebody finally hears and dials 911. Yeah he lost the thumb, there was no point in even trying to save it as it was squashed flat.

    Point #4 is pretty much as you would imagine. Though I had no idea the fingers would still twitch a little bit. That was downright creepy. Never mind the guy screaming and the blood spurting out, there just isn't something "right" about a hand laying there with the fingers slightly twitching.

    Anybody want to hear my dramatic account of what happens to a guy when he takes the guard off a belt-drive industrial pump and somehow manages to get his ponytail caught? Let's just say that nobody ever bitched to him about his long hair ever again!

    I *love* the Industrial Process Control field. Never a dull moment.

    Jay
     
    #34 jayman, Apr 19, 2005
  15. jayman

    jayman Senior Member

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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(bookrats\";p=\"82458)</div>
    Jeff:

    :lol:

    Jay
     
    #35 jayman, Apr 19, 2005
  16. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    That's a nice selection Jay. I've seen, I'm sure it's no suprise, some version of each of those in my career--though serious impalings are rare.
     
    #36 efusco, Apr 19, 2005
  17. tochatihu

    tochatihu Senior Member

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    Not to drag us away from the topic of grievous bodily harm, but I would like to know the thoughts of an ER Doc on the subject of:

    What should an automobile first aid/safety kit contain?

    I have one, supplemented with a couple of towels. Because you should never leave home without a towel.
     
    #37 tochatihu, Apr 19, 2005
  18. Tadashi

    Tadashi Member

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    I just watched ER untold Stories on TV last night. Man vs Band Saw. The doc took 16 hours to reattach the hand and it still works and has feeling.
     
    #38 Tadashi, Apr 19, 2005
  19. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    <div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(tochatihu\";p=\"82621)</div>
    Not much really.
    These days a cell phone makes more sense than anything.

    If you go places that you might get minor cuts and stings you could throw in some bandaids and antibacterial ointment I guess...whatever you feel you might use more than once a year or so.

    If you want something to help in the case of a more serious accident (your own or someone else's) a heavy blanket is probably one of the most important things you could have. Death from hypothermia (usually delayed) is often one of the biggest problems if there's a prolonged extrication or delay in advanced medical care.

    If you are competant in CPR it's a good idea to have one of the little mouth guards that you can put over the patient's mouth--usually has a little bit block built in and acts as a barrier of sorts in this day of AIDS and other communicable diseases.

    On that front, some heavy duty rubber gloves are a good idea--kitchen gloves are an excellent and durable choice...you don't need sterile gloves unless you intend to do micro surgery while awaiting the ambulance. In fact, keep 2 sets. That way you and a helper can apply pressure to bleeding areas or to assist the bleeding patient while protecting yourself.

    Some large sterile gauze pads, ABD pads, or even maxi-pads (yea, the kind women use) can be used to apply pressure and absorb bleeding.

    Ok to summarize:
     
    #39 efusco, Apr 19, 2005
  20. efusco

    efusco Moderator Emeritus
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    I'm moving this thread to Fred's...I think we're officially off topic now! :pukeleft:
     
    #40 efusco, Apr 19, 2005
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