A LITTLE GUN HISTORY!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]496795[/snapback]</div>

Certainly it's the culture. If you don't need a gun in Australia then good for you, really. But people here in America are frickin' nuts! And I don't mean the ones who legally own guns. Yes, I have ~9 or 10 guns. Most are for the sole purpose of hunting, I do have one glock that I use for home defense (say what you want) and carry it legally when I go to another city that might be less than totally safe. Like I said before, hopefully and statistically I will probably never need it, but it's there if I ever do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]496795[/snapback]</div>

The chances of burglary are low, but it happened to my wife and I when we were first married and were in grad school. The chances of carjacking are also low, but it happened to me one night on my way home from a meeting. Maybe I just have bad luck, who knows? But, I can certainly tell you that as soon as Ohio passed our CCW law, I was one of this first to get my permit.

The difference in Australian and American culture with regard to guns is vast. Australians have never had a constitutional right to own firearms, so consequently, the average Australian citizen doesn't own firearms. Those that do own them, largely use them for sporting purposes.

Here are several examples of what your own newspapers have to say about the effects of the 1997 government buy-back program and gun control laws:

"The number of Victorians murdered with firearms has almost trebled since the introduction of tighter gun laws."
--Geelong Advertiser, Victoria, Sept. 11, 1997.

"Gun crime is on the rise despite tougher laws imposed after the Port Arthur massacre, but gun control lobbyists maintain Australia is a safer place. . . . The number of robberies involving guns jumped 39% last year to 2183, according to the Australian Bureau of Statistics, and assaults involving guns rose 28% to 806. The number of gun murders, excluding the Port Arthur massacre, increased by 19% to 75."
--"Gun Crime Rises Despite Controls," Illawarra Mercury Oct. 28, 1998.

"Crime involving guns is on the rise despite tougher laws. The number of robberies with guns jumped 39% in 1997, while assaults involving guns rose 28% and murders by 19%."
--"Gun crime soars," Morning Herald, Sydney, Oct. 28, 1998.

"Murders by firearms have actually increased (in Victoria) since the buyback scheme, which removed 225,000 registered and unregistered firearms from circulation. There were 18 shooting murders in 1996-97, after the buyback scheme had been introduced, compared with only six in 1995-1996 before the scheme started."
--"Killings rise in gun hunt," Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 23, 1998.

"Victoria is facing one of its worst murder tolls in a decade and its lowest arrest rate ever."
--Herald Sun, Melbourne, Dec. 11, 1999.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 10:44 PM) [snapback]496808[/snapback]</div>

And please note the dates for all these articles. They were just after the start of the buy-back. In the 10 years since then, armed robbery has almost disappeared - please note "almost" - we will never be rid of armed robberies, and crime related killings, but then the crims were never going to hand their guns back in. The real key is the number of ad-hoc killings. This is an area where we would be lucky to have one or two per year. How many anger related killings happen each year in the US?

By the way, while we may not have a constitutional right to own a firearm, there is also no constitutional restriction on owning a firearm. Any Australian can own a firearm, and always have been able to. Now, we have just put some stronger controls over why people need to buy a gun, and how they secure it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 08:55 AM) [snapback]496815[/snapback]</div>

You hit the nail on the head when you said that criminals were never going to give up their guns. In fact, the importation of illegal automatic and semi-automatic weapons has become a big problem in Australia. As many as 20,000 illegal pistols were seized in Australia last year. A fully automatic pistol can fetch much more than $10,000 on the black market. Source: http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/gun-bl...6530674425.html

 

Primary post of this thread is crap, and if you think your government would round up and exterminate it's people you might want to vote more carefully rather than keep a revolver under your pillow.

I know assault murders and shootings are down not up.

More people who own guns are killed by guns than people who don't own guns.

It is unlawful to use a weapon to protect property in Australia and you may use reasonable force to protect life and limb. If you shot a burglar to stop his stealing your stuff you would be on a murder charge.

However it is legal to have insurance on your property.

I wouldn't want to live with having shot anyone even a burglar.

I work in compliance, I stop trucks on the road and talk with drivers, at times reporting and issuing fines. I don't carry any weapons and I don't want to. Could it be the guns that make people crazy?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(patsparks @ Aug 16 2007, 09:24 AM) [snapback]496827[/snapback]</div>

At least in the US, that is partially attributable to the proliferation of concealed carry laws.

Anecdotal at best.

It is illegal here in Ohio as well, so what is your point?

Well, it is certainly better than dying at the hands of the burglar.

Don't worry, you aren't allowed to carry one anyway!

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 16 2007, 06:35 AM) [snapback]496786[/snapback]</div>

And you are welcome to live in fear behind the false security of your gun. As I pointed out, not only are anecdotal accounts like your link there rare statistically, even if you have a gun, things might not go the way you intended. Seriously, how long does it take you to get out of bed, find your key, unlock the gun, and load it, all the while making no sound and hoping the burglar doesn't step into your room? Or do you leave your gun loaded and unlocked where your kids can get it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Aug 16 2007, 11:15 AM) [snapback]496889[/snapback]</div>

Anecdotal? You must be joking.

There are approximately two million defensive gun uses (DGU's) per year by law abiding citizens. That was one of the findings in a national survey conducted by Gary Kleck, a Florida State University criminologist in 1993. Prior to Dr. Kleck's survey, thirteen other surveys indicated a range of between 800,000 to 2.5 million DGU's annually. However these surveys each had their flaws which prompted Dr. Kleck to conduct his own study specifically tailored to estimate the number of DGU's annually.

Source: Gary, Kleck and Marc Gertz, "Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun," Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology 1995, Vol. 86 No. 1.

Subsequent to Kleck's study, the Department of Justice sponsored a survey in 1994 titled, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms. Using a smaller sample size than Kleck's, this survey estimated 1.5 million DGU's annually.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Aug 16 2007, 11:15 AM) [snapback]496889[/snapback]</div>

Is it false security for police to carry guns, guess they better put them away too since they don't know how to use it. What about the military, let's put those guns and tanks and planes and ships away too because they are operated by incompetent idiots.

It's only false security for morons who don't know how to use a gun in the first place. Yes, in that case it is probably better for them to not have a gun lest it be used against them. Those who take it seriously train in it's use for defense, practice shooting at various intervals, in various scenarios, etc... All of my guns are in a gun safe in the basement. The glock (exception) is in the bedroom. Step one, insert clip, step two rack slide, step three shoot intruder. Practice and it takes about 2-3 seconds. I also have a large dog (don't say anything about outlawing them) who can warn ahead of time.

As far as the kids, irresponsible people are the reason kids die. Since my son could understand a word I have told him about the proper use of guns and the rules associated. I have run many drills where a gun is left laying around (unloaded ofcourse) to see what happens in accordance with the instructions he has been given. In every instance he tells myself or my wife that daddy left a gun out. Friends houses, he knows if he ever sees a gun anywhere other than in my hand to run home and tell me, and he has done so before. He was upset one day because when I went to my Mom's house to pick him up. It was because Grandpa and his brother went out into the woods to target shoot. Despite everyone(his grandma and gradpa) telling him he could go, he said he couldn't go without his daddy. It is kids that are not educated who get shot or shoot someone. Don't stick your head in the sand and think it won't happen. Even if you are against guns, please tell your kids about them and give them rules and tell them what to do if they ever see one. Do you talk to them about strangers, drugs, fires, etc... I think they should know what to do in the case of a gun as well.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 07:09 AM) [snapback]496795[/snapback]</div>

You're right; it's bad and getting worse. I don't really know what's happening to us here, or why people are feeling more and more threatened and more and more aggressive (and why the most violent among us are the ones who claim to be most threatened by violence).
"
We glorify violence (as long as it's not perpetrated against us) and might making right everywhere around us, then wonder why we all need guns to feel safe.

I think it's preposterous, and sick, and disappointing, and wrong, and childish. And I don't know why we can't respect each other, without the direct threat of violence being the only thing that keeps us from killing each other.

"The direct threat of violence is what keeps us from killing each other...?"

Welcome to the 21st Century Wild West. Always wanted to shoot someone through my holster, without actually drawing my revolver!!
[laughing, guardedly]

I can't even believe we're debating this. It *is* sick.

No wonder we're losing our respect abroad. I mean, seriously...look at us, people!!! Do you not see?!?!
:-(

------

The more someone insists on their "right" to carry a gun, the less of a "right" they should have to carry one.

The only people I'd trust to carry a gun are those who *don't want to.*

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 16 2007, 11:24 AM) [snapback]496946[/snapback]</div>

We're not in disagreement about educating kids (and people in general). What we are disagreeing about is the possibility that, despite all education and precautions, someone could access that gun and cause harm, intentionally or unintentionally.

"Indeed, a gun in the home is 22 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting, a criminal assault or homicide, or an attempted or completed suicide than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense." http://www.bradycenter.org/xshare/pdf/repo...etingsafety.pdf

I know, you can find statistics that prove any point, but I take this seriously. To me, the odds favor the person with no gun having a life without violence.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 10:29 AM) [snapback]496906[/snapback]</div>

Anecdotal was referring directly to dareniott's link about a break-in. He was using the story as an example of what can happen to you if you do get burglarized and can't protect yourself (which I respect, but it IS anecdotal, since it tells of one instance). It had nothing to do with your gun use statistics.

As far as they go, I can't find refutation of the numbers you cite. But if a gun in my house is 22 times more likely to be used in a negative way, I can do without one, thanks.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Aug 16 2007, 02:53 PM) [snapback]497107[/snapback]</div>

No offense but getting facts from the Brady group is like asking Bush if Saddam had WMDs. I agree that facts and statistics can be distorted any way you like by EITHER side. That is why I continually say I do not care what the numbers say. I personally have a gun and I am the only one I am worried about. But since you bring up numbers please note that all statistics are averages. So for every foolish and irresponsible adult who allows a kid to harm themself through the adult's mishandling of weapons, my children offset. I am not saying it doesn't happen, but for every child harmed there are also those that are not harmed. I would love to see a statistic or study that showed the number of children that died due to being uniformed or ignorant about guns. THEN lets take the number of children who are still alive and HAVE been informed and trained about guns and compare those two numbers.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Aug 16 2007, 03:00 PM) [snapback]497107[/snapback]</div>

It is only anecdotal until it happens to you or someone you know. I was not AT ALL citing it as statistics or proof of anything. Face it, it is a f**k*d up world out there. I know the chances are probably 1 in millions that anything like that would happen to me or anyone I know. But maybe Dr. Petit thought the same thing. I think the difference here is entirely in everyone's view of the world. Like Pinto Girl said, she would rather leave her fate up to good feelings and positive energy. I am far more cynical of the true nature of this country/world.

 

This whole thread is laughable because it is identifying a symptom of a larger problem. Gun Laws or Gun Advocacy is not going to fix the problem... Look deeper people.

 

It is real simple folks. If you don't like guns, then don't buy or carry one. However, please respect my constitutional right to do so.

 

And you notice I haven't once said that you shouldn't have a right to your gun or your opinion. I simply feel that life is too short to be concerned about 1 in a million chances. I also never play the lottery, for the same reason. Good or bad, I look at life expecting the expected, and when the unexpected happens, I deal with it. If I have a reasonable belief that something WILL happen (i.e., if there were a string of break-ins in my particular neighborhood), then I would take extra precautions. Of course, that still wouldn't include buying a gun. I don't believe in shooting someone, even in self defense. Call it naive or stupid, but I have lived a good life, and if it ends tomorrow because of someone else's violence, so be it. I won't be party to the violence.

So keep your gun, because as we all know, the laws aren't going to change anytime soon. But also realize that there are millions of people here and abroad that are living their lives in peace, unaffected by violence, without the protection of a gun. That's not anecdotal. Less than 50% of American households own handguns.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 16 2007, 02:10 PM) [snapback]497119[/snapback]</div>

Greater personal safety is, clearly, as simple as re-examining one's world view. There is danger everywhere...you're lots more likely to be killed in a car accident, but you drive, right...?

You'll find good everywhere, if only you decide it's there.

About my experience that I mentioned earlier (the thing where the guy pointed the garden hose at me and yelled what he did)...does that count as having experienced the workings of laws like these?

I laughed afterwards, but his willingness to adopt this stance --and grab whatever "weapon" was at his disposal and point it at me, when I'm a clearly unarmed woman (tank top and shorts with no pockets)-- was really, really scary.

Say he *did* have a gun...? I don't even want to go there, and I don't want us --as a Nation-- to go there either.

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. And we're NOT, dammit!!! Ideas like this are making us the world's clown.

I'd rather a criminal shoot and kill me, than for me to kill someone accidentally, even in self defense.

I will take this "gamble" as some of you seem to see it. I take it every day and will do so, until the end of *my* days.

I'm sorry, but my personal self preservation simply doesn't mean that much, in comparison to the greater good of our Country. And gun-carrying laws like this are NOT in the common good. They're full of selfishness, and protecting "my property" and "my castle" and "my rights."

ME, ME, ME!!!!

Tell you this much, I won't be stopping by your place to borrow a half cup of sugar.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 03:53 PM) [snapback]497172[/snapback]</div>

Sorry, to break this to you, but you live in a country founded on the principle of individual rights. In my opinion, our national motto should be "ME, ME, ME!!!"

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 02:43 PM) [snapback]497164[/snapback]</div>

I respect your right to carry a gun, but please leave the bullets at home.

The Constitution doesn't say anything about a "right to keep and bear LOADED arms" does it?

Hmmmmm, there might be a loophole here, worth exploiting...


It's not about your right to carry a gun, it's about how afraid your "right" to carry a gun is making the rest of us who don't want to live in an environment of fear.

Does that not bother you, that you're making a lot of us really scared with such assertions? That your "right" is creating an environment --like a smoker's secondhand smoke does-- that's repulsive to those of us who don't smoke (want to carry a gun) in the first place...?

I can't believe you don't see that it's more than simply about YOUR right to do something...it's about the very idea of gun ownership en masse --even if you, personally, never draw your gun-- is harming lots of people every day who don't feel comfortable with the idea.

Myself included.

Have you considered this? Considered this then decided to own a gun anyway? I'm curious how much you've taken into consideration the feelings of folks like me.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 04:05 PM) [snapback]497181[/snapback]</div>

None whatsoever! I don't know you and I don't care about you or your feelings. That sounds harsh and no offense is intended. But like I said in a previous post, If I was gone tomorrow would anyone outside my immediate circle care? Would the world all skip a beat and mourne me, NO. ME, ME, ME, if you don't care about yourself who will? There are no fuzzy happy feelings in this world, this world is cold! Yes there are good people like you but everyone is pretty much on their own. I will never purposely harm someone but nor will I try to accomodate someone's feelings to the detriment of myself.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 03:03 PM) [snapback]497177[/snapback]</div>

Incorrect. The founding fathers, I believe, originally intended for us to also consider the common good.

So, may I now quote you as saying that "I [Swanny1172], believe that America's motto should be ME, ME, ME!!!"...?

This is not what individual rights are about. I'm really saddened that you're taking this stance.

Do you really believe this?

--------I don't.

And --I'd assert-- it's the focus on "me" instead of the focus on "we" that is causing a lot of our problems today. We're ALSO a country. We ALL need each other for this to work. You're NOT an island, and like it or not, you need us, too.

So, just to clarify beyond confusion, you're saying that "...the USA would be best off if we all exercised our "individual rights" to their maximum extent, irrespective of any other concerns?"

Unless you indicate otherwise, I will now quote you as asserting the above.

Very, very nice.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 16 2007, 03:21 PM) [snapback]497195[/snapback]</div>

I have great pity for you, and am sorry that you live in such a dark place.

Newsflash: human suffering is the same, whether you know the folks who are suffering or not. So, it's cool that Iraqis are being killed...since you don't know them? Is that how you justify your actions? That you don't know the person you're about to harm...?

Sweet.

So it's ONLY your fear of being punished by the law that keeps you from hurting anyone you don't know...?

You don't feel that you have ANY moral or religious obligations to your fellow humans???

This makes it very easy for you to inflict all kinds of pain upon all kinds of people, doesn't it?

------

"If I don't know someone, their suffering is meaningless."

May I put THOSE words in *your* mouth? Or am I (finally) being too extreme for you?

-----

Believe it or not, I do read the obituaries and, yes, feel sorrow for other people's families, none of whom I know. So --believe it or not-- I likely would feel sorry to read about something untoward that befell you.

I guess I'm just weak that way.

I can care about myself, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of others, like it is for you.