A LITTLE GUN HISTORY!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 04:05 PM) [snapback]497181[/snapback]</div>

Well, I think your fears are a bit irrational. You seem to fear law-abiding citizens like myself who have chosen to protect themselves with rights guaranteed by our 2nd Amendment. However, you seem to have no fear of criminals, and that seems irrational to me.

You seemingly think that someone else has the responsibility to save and protect us, and I don't. Your feelings mean nothing to me when it comes to protecting my family and myself.

 

I actually agree with Swanny here. Your fears are a bit irrational. Gun laws have almost zero effect on anything (good or bad).
We'll always have guns, people will be killed every day around the world till humans are wiped off the planet.
You can't legislate stupidity or warm fuzzy feelings.
A psycho is a psycho with or without gun laws and they can find a multitude of ways to kills people if thy can't find a gun.
Violence problems are deeper than the availability of weapons.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 04:23 PM) [snapback]497196[/snapback]</div>

You live in that dark place too, it's called the world, google it!

This is funny because I have had this same discussion a hundred times over with someone I work with. It is not AT ALL that I do not care what happens to someone or anyone else. I certainly care, don't EVEN get me started on IRAQ. It is not that at all, you may think otherwise and I am sure MANY do, but I am a good person. I mean that, a really good person. I care very much for my family and those around me and work my a$$ off the have the best and most rewarding life possible. I help people out, I recycle, I give to charity, but if I die who will step up and raise my children? Who will provide for them? Is this where I am to look to the hippy commune or the good nature of the world? Should I look to the insurance companies that will do everything they can NOT to pay (look at Katrina). I care about other people, I just do not care about them more than my family. Can you SERIOUSLY say you do? If you have kids, would take food out of their mouth and give it to starving children and watch your own die? Starving children die everyday and if you do not sacrifice your own then you cannot say that you care more about others than yourself.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Aug 16 2007, 04:38 PM) [snapback]497210[/snapback]</div>

Well said! I believe I was trying to convey that in my "Face it, it is a f**k*d up world out there." post.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Aug 16 2007, 03:38 PM) [snapback]497210[/snapback]</div>

Of course they are. Far deeper.

And I believe I've already suggested that on a number of occasions.

I'm attempting to demonstrate that, actually, it's the gun owner's ability to disengage themselves from violent acts (using rationalizations such as the above, which actually degrade the value of 'certain' human lives) to then assert their "right" to keep guns for themselves.

I CAN'T do what I've described above, therefore it's not really possible for me to carry a gun under these circumstances.

That's how I feel about it.

-------

Are you serious? Gun laws have very little effect one way or another? What message do you think it sends to our children, if we make carriage of a firearm a commonplace occurrence?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 04:23 PM) [snapback]497196[/snapback]</div>

You can quote me to your bleeding heart's content.

And, here is another quote for you. This one is by a Founding Father.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
--- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 16 2007, 03:45 PM) [snapback]497217[/snapback]</div>

Ahhh, so now you're backing down.

Now, it's about degrees...yes, you care about people, just not as much as your family...

That's not what you said before.

Have you stopped driving a car? You're lots more likely to be killed on the road...and then, who's going to take care of your family...?

FACT: You're not afraid of other things that are actually lots more likely to kill you than an armed robber. Yet owning a gun is soooooo much more important to you than, say, highway safety?

REASON: <strike>Guns are COOL!!</strike> "It's my right!"



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 03:49 PM) [snapback]497224[/snapback]</div>

Feeling like that quote supports my point --the liberty to live in freedom of being shot accidentally-- more than yours.

"Purchasing temporary safety" sounds a lot like buying a gun for oneself...doesn't it?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 04:59 PM) [snapback]497231[/snapback]</div>

I apologize for not qualifying my previous "I don't care about anyone" posts with "to the detriment of myself".

Do you wear seatbelts? Did you buy a five star safety rated Prius? because I did. See if I don't drive to work I make no money and coincidentally I and my circle suffer. Would I rather telecommute, YES! Have been trying to get that in place for years!

 

"Are you serious? Gun laws have very little effect one way or another? What message do you think it sends to our children, if we make carriage of a firearm a commonplace occurrence?"

Very little. Gun laws don't convince millions of Americans to go out and buy a handgun to conceal and carry. Kids don't even know about gun legislation or care to watch the news. I own hunting guns and I live in a state with a conceal and carry law. But I've never felt a need to carry a gun in public ever and never will. I've also not known anyone who DOES feel the need, let alone actually do so.
The law did not result in everyone carrying a gun, it just made it so the few thousand that probably already were, despite being otherwise law abiding, now have some legal protection to do so, and in reality it affects a minimal number of people. It did lead to thousands being made on sselling signs that say"No Guns Allowed Inside".
All children go through the "bang, bang, you're dead" cowboys and indians phase. Their ability to refrain from shooting someone for real is still pretty ingrained. Those who lack that ability either had terrible parents, terrible pyschiatric problems, or grew up in a culture where it was kill or be killed. Mankind (sort of) grew out of the kill or be killed phase, and we call that "civilization". Guns are a part of what allowed civilization to take hold. They are a bitter/sweet part of humans past/present/and future.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Darwood @ Aug 16 2007, 04:09 PM) [snapback]497243[/snapback]</div>

I can only hope you're right. I've heard it said that most folks drive no faster than they feel safe, not matter what the speed limit is...perhaps I should have more faith in the 'self limiting' nature of the silent majority.

Winston Churchill: "Talk, talk, talk is always better than shoot, shoot, shoot."

Pinto Girl: "The fighting doesn't begin until the talking ends."

[sigh]

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 16 2007, 05:01 PM) [snapback]497231[/snapback]</div>

Not quite. Franklin was talking specifically about giving up one's rights in deference to safety (e.g. giving up your right to keep in bear arms because you feel that it would be safer for the government should protect you.) I'm sorry, but I will not defer my personal rights and responsibilities to the government. Law-abiding, responsible citizens do not and should not need to ask anyone's permission or approval to engage in a peaceful activity.

In terms of your "feelings", what about the rest of us? Millions of Americans have guns in their homes and sleep more comfortably because of it. A person with a gun in their home is no threat to you if you aren't breaking into it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 17 2007, 02:24 AM) [snapback]496946[/snapback]</div>

Dareniott, I think that you are missing, or deliberately ignoring, one of the key points that Pinto Girl and I are saying. As a gun owner, you are doing the right thing with most of your weapons - lock them up in a gun safe. That is being responsible, and safe. However, there is an exception.

Now let us take a hypothetical situation - you, and your family have gone out, along with that dog of yours, and someone breaks into your house, finds the glock, and takes it. A day later, they get angry at someone, pulls out the glock and shoots that other person. Not your responsibility?? But you were the one who left the gun in an unsecure environment. If that criminal had not found the gun, they may have hit the person they got angry with, but they are less likely to kill them. That other person would have had more chance to defend themselves.

As for educating your children, yes I have educated my children - guns are bad, stay away from them, if you see a gun, run. Just what is a gun for - killing things. It cannot be used for any other purpose. Sure there is the threat, to kill someone or something. When I was a kid, like all children, I played various wild west games, and even war games where we were shooting each other. Great fun. Whoever had the best gun won, but then, at the end of the day, all the dead kids got up and went home.

But then I went into the Air Force and was issued a gun. I learnt how to use it. I was also exposed to what happens when a gun is used as it is intended - to kill. I can assure you, it is definitely not nice when used against a human. When I left the Air Force, the last thing I ever wanted to own again was a gun. My choice - my right to choose has been exercised. You have chosen to have guns. Great. That is also your right, and I do not mind, as long as you are responsible. I do not think that having a gun in the bedroom is responsible. I do not think that carrying a gun when it is not part of your job is responsible.

I think that this is really where those who oppose gun control get it wrong. You get this "gun owners are responsible people and careful people", except..... And frankly, there are too many exceptions in the US.

 

AussieOwner,

You really have your head buried in the sand if you really think that you will ever be able to get rid of all guns. Hell, just look at your own country and the article I posted this morning. Motorcycle gangs are importing illegal weapons into Australia. Why? Because there is a demand. New handguns fetch up to $5,000 and machine-guns more than $10,000 on the black market, and law enforcement authorities are struggling to control the trade.

It is suspected there are as many as 20,000 illegal handguns in Australia. And guess what, only the criminals have them now. Congratulations. Be sure to let us know how that one works out for you.

In terms of the kids, you are correct that even one accidental shooting is too many. But, so are accidental drownings, which are actually more likely to happen, but you don't see people calling for a ban on pools.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 02:45 PM) [snapback]497266[/snapback]</div>

Wow, I really feel sorry for your kids. It's like telling a kid "Sex is bad, stay away from it."

Ignorance is not education, it is simply ignorance.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 06:03 PM) [snapback]497277[/snapback]</div>

I agree, we should outlaw pools, and kitchen knives, chainsaws, axes, baseball bats, and large ornamental stuffed swordfish.

Point 1: Bad people will always kill non-bad people, that's why their bad. yin and yang.


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 05:45 PM) [snapback]497266[/snapback]</div>

They could just as easily steal a kitchen knife, an axe out of my garage, they could even steal my big screen t.v. The problem is not legal gun owners, it never has been and never will. See point 1.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 17 2007, 08:03 AM) [snapback]497277[/snapback]</div>

First, I have never said that I want to ban guns, or get rid of them. I have already said that if you want a gun, fine, that is your hobby, job, or sport. But to have one to make you feel safe :blink:

Second, that article, like most anti-gun control quotes, is just a flagrant piece of journalism - "it is suspected" meaning we are guessing and we will up the guess to jazz up the article.

Third, we actually do have a number of controls in place for household pools, again trying to reduce the chance of accidental drownings. Yes they happen, and we have tried to reduce the chance by insisting on fences around pools and child proof locks on the gates. And our gun controls are designed to do the same, prevent the accidental killings.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(AussieOwner @ Aug 16 2007, 06:15 PM) [snapback]497288[/snapback]</div>

I didn't realize that The Age newspaper in Melbourne was pro-gun. Funny, but it just seemed like a newspaper article to me.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/national/bik...6530679062.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wiiprii @ Aug 17 2007, 08:09 AM) [snapback]497282[/snapback]</div>

Please show me where my teaching my kids that guns can kill, that the sole purpose of a gun is to kill, and if you do not want to be killed, stay away from guns is ignorance. Obviously you are another person who has not seen the effect of a gunshot on another person. That is ignorance! I can assure you, it is definitely not a pretty sight, nor is the look on that person's face when they realise that they are dying. It is a look that you will never see in a movie or on TV.

However, having said that, I am not anti-guns. What I am in favour of is reasonable control of firearms to reduce accidental killings. I am not arguing against your "rights", but I am arguing on a little sensible thought about the actual usage of that right and some controls when you do exercise that right.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wiiprii @ Aug 16 2007, 05:09 PM) [snapback]497282[/snapback]</div>

Double wow. Did you just say that sex and guns are the same thing? Because last time I checked, one resulted in death, and the other in new life...In other words, sex is definitely NOT bad, but you have to understand the consequences. Good parents teach it this way, not "sex is bad". But guns, on the other hand, can only be used to kill. That's a bad outcome, no matter who the dead target happens to be. So yes, "guns are bad" is good education as far as I'm concerned, and followed by "because they are used to kill people." This isn't ignorance. It's fact.



<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(dareniott @ Aug 16 2007, 05:15 PM) [snapback]497286[/snapback]</div>

This is another problem I have with your point of view. The great majority of the people in the world (including criminals) would not categorize themselves as "bad". Bad people don't pop out that way. Society, family, and economics all play a role. And good to bad is a sliding scale, not a black and white. We all do bad things, just as we all try to do good things. It's a matter of degree. But I understand that seeing black and white is easier...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 16 2007, 04:43 PM) [snapback]497264[/snapback]</div>

And millions of other Americans sleep perfectly soundly without guns in their homes, and in fact feel more comfortable because of it. Pinto's point was not that she was MORE afraid of legal gun owners, but that ALL gun-toters, legal or illegal, well-intentioned or not, can be felt as a threat to our own security.

Your gun is also a threat if, as was mentioned earlier, it is stolen from your home, or if my child happens to come visit. I would never willingly let my son step into ANY house where I knew there were firearms (with the possible exception of hunting rifles).

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Aug 16 2007, 07:20 PM) [snapback]497363[/snapback]</div>

First off, I live in an upper-middle class neighborhood with a low crime rate. I have two large dogs and a burglar alarm, so it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to break into my house. All of my guns are unloaded and locked away in a large gun safe in my basement, the notable exception being a .38 Special revolver that I keep unloaded in a locked safe in my closet. That safe can only be opened with a 5 digit code being entered into an electronic lock. More than 10 tries and the keypad locks you out and you have to open it with a key. The is stored in the basement safe.

So, there is no way than any unauthorized users would have even a remote chance of getting their hands on any of my guns. My kids don't play with toy guns and understand basic firearms safety, namely being "STOP! Don't Touch. Leave the Area. Tell an Adult."

In terms of your kids in the homes of others, chances are you have no idea if they have guns or not. They may not disclose that information to you, so it is prudent for you as a parent to make sure your child knows what to do in the event they come into contact with a gun. However, I find it interesting that you make a provision for hunting rifles. Are they not just as deadly as handguns?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Tyrin @ Aug 16 2007, 06:20 PM) [snapback]497363[/snapback]</div>

On behalf of the rest of Americans, I'd like to personally apologize for some of the posts you've been exposed to here. As a citizen, I'm actually a bit horrified.

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Good and bad...a sliding scale...? How UN-American. The religious right will soon be upon you like gum on your new couch. Wasn't it Swanny (or someone else?) who posed the question, "what's wrong with deciding on good and evil??"

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Americans like to decide if something is good or evil. We love, love, LOVE to come to this conclusion.

It's one of the things we do best, I think. It's what allows us to feel good about taking justice into our own hands, and being the "protector of the world."

Because we're "in the right"...and that justifies anything...doesn't it...?

How many violent movies here first establish that our hero has been wronged...then, once that's done, it's okay for him/her to consume the rest of the film doing whatever it takes to achieve vengeance?

Isn't the current Borne movie exactly like that?

This is how we want to live our real lives in the real world. Americans NEED to decide what's "bad." Once that's accomplished (and it's really easy, apparently) we then can discriminate/marginalize/kill him/her/it with a clean conscience.

It works against minorities and women, against homosexuals, even against the French when they wouldn't go along with our little sojourn in Iraq...anyone "bad," really...

Handy.