A LITTLE GUN HISTORY!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 20 2007, 11:17 AM) [snapback]499232[/snapback]</div>

You need to study the history of this country, Pinto Girl. This country was built with freedom as the bedrock. Our freedom is still here after 200+ years because of our ability to defend ourselves. That right to defend ourselves preserves this nation. Take that right away, and we lose all other rights.

If you deny the right to honest Americans the ability to defend themselves, you give the criminals more power to wage crime with guns that you have just taken away from the honest citizens.

And thankfully, that will never happen.

 

I've got a Remington 12 gauge pump-action shutgun. I live in deer country, where the only legitimate way to take deer is with a shotgun*. Does that make me afraid? Afraid of what? Does my 12 gauge also serve as a home protection gun? It sure could, if I ever need it, which I doubt. Might I ever use it to protect my family? I might. It's there if I need it. Otherwise, it's for hunting turkeys, deer, rabbits, or whatever.

It's unloaded in my closet. I can have it loaded quickly, in the dark. Nothing like racking the slide on a 12-gauge to give a home-invading criminal pause. Do I lay awake at night worrying about this? Of course not.

I've also got a permit for my little Beretta pistol. I rarely get that out. It's there, in a very secret place, should I ever need it. Again, I probably won't ever need it. Did I buy it because I'm afraid? No. I don't live in a high crime area. As I get older, I might feel the need to carry it to protect myself, but for the moment I don't see the need to carry it.

I can kill you with my Prius, but I don't feel any compulsion to do that, either.

I'm way more likely to be murdered on the road by a careless driver than a criminal invading my home.

More people are killing each other on the road than with guns. How about a thread on that?

Harry

*Actually, deer can be taken with a blackpowder rifle, or bow-and-arrow, but not by rifle.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wiiprii @ Aug 20 2007, 01:23 PM) [snapback]499237[/snapback]</div>

You're confusing freedom and safety with violence and fear.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Earthling @ Aug 20 2007, 01:55 PM) [snapback]499251[/snapback]</div>

I mentioned this point, too...the likelihood of any of us dying in a car accident is far greater than a violent crime.

Guess the automotive lobby is more powerful than the gun lobby.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 20 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]499258[/snapback]</div>

No confusion here. How many US history classes have you taken? Did you know that our freedom has been threatened many times, and each time we have defended ourselves with force, including using guns.

Guns are not bad, there are only bad people.

Think about it.

 

Here's a news item and a good example of gun owners in the wrong. This guy is in jail because he shot at some kids who were on the edge of his property and nowhere near his home and not a threat.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Spoo...e-Shooting.html

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wiiprii @ Aug 21 2007, 11:09 AM) [snapback]499773[/snapback]</div>

Guns give "bad people" (as you incorrectly and derisively refer to them) the ability to be much worse than they'd be otherwise.

*You* think about it.

Let's talk about your need to classify people as "good" and "bad" for a moment. Why do you indulge yourself so? Who are *you* to make this call? God?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 21 2007, 04:34 PM) [snapback]499909[/snapback]</div>

So do planes, trains and automobiles -- but especially planes, as we all saw on 9/11.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 21 2007, 01:34 PM) [snapback]499909[/snapback]</div>

People make a choice to either obey the law or not to obey the law. People who break the law and commit crimes aren't what I would call "good people" and I don't want them on the street. To commit a crime, you're being dishonest to yourself and to your community.

Honest people who obey the law have the right to own and carry a gun if they choose to. Why do you want to take that right away from honest people?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(wiiprii @ Aug 21 2007, 04:51 PM) [snapback]499920[/snapback]</div>

I break the speed limit nearly every day. Does that make me a bad person?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 21 2007, 03:45 PM) [snapback]499916[/snapback]</div>

Yes, and so do nail clippers...

Not this again.

For the gazillionth time I'll repeat myself: Guns are *specifically* designed to kill things. Are you asserting that airplanes and cars are designed by their manufacturers with the same intent?

By your standards, even one's bare hands qualify.

-----

wiiprii: I think most "honest people" give themselves waaaaay too much credit as to how skilled they are at handling firearms. Maybe not you, but most people...that's why I'd like to see guns taken out of the hands of "honest people."

Because honesty has nothing to do with competency.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Pinto Girl @ Aug 22 2007, 07:34 PM) [snapback]500674[/snapback]</div>

Not this again yourself.

There are other things besides guns that are designed to kill including bows and arrows, knives, fly swatters, sharp sticks, etc.

 

FWIW, gun reg's are similar to products liability. Early on, you can make a car, or a chair, a home, or what ever, and Caveat emptor when it messes you up. Now days, many want heavy reg's on all our services and products, reconciled in theory because the 'state' needs to keep us all safe. So lots of folks can sue now because their car crashed, chair broke, home caved in, and the customer got badly injured. Then we gripe because costs go up. The manufacturer / service provider passed his / her errors/omissions insurance policy onto you. So we're fed up and think, "maybe we're over regulated".
Enter, Guns early history: Kill dinner, shoot bad people. Enter the state. "We only want to keep you safe, and stop you from hurting yourself". But some folks can't wait for cops to arrive, and the poor robber/rapist doesn't have any cash if you make him your defendant. If we do regulate guns out of existence and depend on the state for protection? What do we do then? ... you know ... if we realize we made a mistake by taking away the guns from the good people.

In the mean time ~ here's the mighty whitey out in the middle of the California Desert, where we last went plinkin'

[attachmentid=10840]

A three hour round trip, just to cap off a few hundred rounds, shooting at office furniture, Freon cans, bottles, whatever. Now, around our Montana home? Conceal away. It's ok. We can shoot right outside our old house, too. California, wants (for the most part) to subscribe to the "State has to keep you safe" policy, while in MT, "we take care of our self" is the policy for the most part. Then again, if you're up at White Fish Lake, and you surprise a Grizzly? Dang! Where's that ranger when you need 'em!

One acquaintence of mine here in CA just moved to FL. He wanted more toys. Now he has BIG guns that spit out LOTS of rounds, and guns that shoot through body armor. Totally legal there. So maybe that's over my boundry. But for some?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Swanny1172 @ Aug 22 2007, 06:43 PM) [snapback]500681[/snapback]</div>

But that's why we love our guns so much, isn't it? Nothing else does the job so easily and well...

As for the "honest people" idea, I think this has been mentioned before as well. "Bad" people get there from one of four starting points:

1. Family issues: Abuse, neglect, criminal role models, or just plain lack of parenting. These really mess up kids and they often don't get any better as they grow up.

2. Poverty: If you're hungry, stealing, even with force, is not a question of right or wrong. It's a question of survival.

3. Community: If you live in a community where all the kids join a gang or get beat up, chances are you're gonna join the gang and commit some crimes, just to keep yourself safe.

4. Psychological problems: While these can be caused by #1-3 above, they also occasionally show up for no apparent environmental reason.

I'm sorry, but except in the rare cases mentioned in #4, the idea of the "bad man" who's sole purpose in life is to hurt you and steal from you is practically non-existant. People commit crimes for many reasons. I know some here will say they don't care why, they're still going to protect themselves. Well, then, allow me to suggest some protection that you can help with.

1. Family Services (i.e., the gov't): These social problems aren't going to fix themselves. They continue from generation to generation. Some people need specific guidance from trained individuals to learn how to raise a child. It's amazing that we need a license to drive a car, yet anyone can have a kid and turn it into a psychopath, and until someone gets hurt (at which point it might be too late for the child to change), we can't stop them.

2. Schools: Start early (preschool for all) and give teachers the time, training, and money they need. This is the only professional group who will see ALL children on a regular basis as they grow. Only teachers can really make a difference if the parents can't or won't do their job.

3. Other child welfare support: Children should not have to worry about food, clothing, or medical care. Yet there are thousands in this country who do. Gee, I wonder why they grow up thinking if they want something, they have to take it by force?

4. Better gun control laws: I'm not talking about taking away your gun. I'm talking about training courses, like driver's ed, psychological screening, etc. Of course, if you are a gun-owning adult, this would probably tick you off, but think about it as a right-of-passage like getting your driver's license. Kids wouldn't think anything of it, they'd jump through the hoops when they were the proper age, and we might be able to catch the ones who really shouldn't have a gun before they get it.

These things would make you safer. And you don't even need to buy a gun to make them happen! (Oh, but you'd probably have to be willing to pay taxes, sorry)

Sorry guys, I couldn't resist reviving such a wonderful thread! :lol:

 

A call to all non US Americans.

1/ Do you have rights where you live?

2/ Do you live your life reciting the laws that protect those rights or do you just live with them?

3/ Do you feel your rights would be better protected if you had a gun?
4/ DO you live in a country where reported gun incidents outnumber road deaths?

 

1/ Yes I do, lots of them. I feel very free.
2/ No, I have no idea what laws specifically protect my rights.
3/ No, I feel safer knowing guns are not part of mainstream culture. Also automatic and semi automatic rifles and all hand guns but a very few which are tightly controled have been removed from the general population.
4/ No, there are about 300 gun killings a year in Australia and murder and assult have declined since the gun buy back. Prior to the gun buy-back Australia had a gun death rate of about 700 per year and rising. Gun control has saved 400 lives a year, minimum.

Gun Related Murders per 100,000 of population in 2002 (From Sunday Times)

USA 4.08

Canada 0.54

England and Wales 0.12

Scotland 0.12

Japan 0.04

Australia 0.25

It's great knowing guns are keeping US Americans safe.
It's interesting to note that in the UK police generally don't carry guns.