ABC news report on Hybrids tonight

You can challenge my point, but not with three examples of which the most recent is 12 years old. You can do better than that. As I have stated on here before, there are two retired sisters in my wife's family. I would say that neither is a 'good' driver. One has a Buick Century and one has a Prius. The Century driver gets 2-4 mpg better consistently. I know it is only one case, but it is real and recent. I know Prius will get much better mileage in the majority of cases, but my point is that there are many vehicles which will get good mileage which are much more comfortable to drive. If mileage was my concern and I did a long commute everyday I would definitely consider the Prius.

 

OK, under the harshest driving in single digit temperature my '02 Prius gets 42 MPG. In nice weather it gets as high as 54 MPG. Every GM car I have ever owned never got anywhere near the EPA ratings. GM makes some of the worst crap on the road. I have an Olds Bravada (29 months old), that thank god is only leased and goes back to GM in July it averages 13.5 MPG!!! THAT IS RIGHT, MY GM VEHICLE GETS 13.5 MPG

Now don't say its because it is an SUV, as I had three Mercury Mountaineers that were more powerfull and typically got between 17-19 MPG. GM is Pure Crap!

 

Were you pulling a hay wagon with your Bravada? Something is wrong.

 

No hay wagon, just hills in northern NJ. Dealer says this is normal. Does not matter it will be last GM car I ever drive. But that is not saying much, heard on the radio this morning that there is a 70% chance that GM files chapter 11 within 12 months, and a 90% chance within 18 months. Maybe when they fire all the workers that are over paid to start with and paid when they don't work the new company will be able to produce a decent car at a fair price.

 

I am still awaiting your response to my post advising you that the Consumer Reports test results for the LaCrosse were 12 city, 30 highway and 18 overall.

After all, you are the one who chose to use the consumer Reports 35 city MPG economy figures in your attempt to convince the rest of us that the Buick beats the EPA ratings while the Prius falls short.

 

Really? That's the worst MPG you can get out of your Prius? I've managed to get (over the first 80 miles on this tank) as low as 30 MPG. Yes. That's right. 30.

Now, quoting this number is tremendously unfair to the Prius, since a lot of the driving has been short trips (5 minutes or so) and on most of the trips we've been blasting the heat (I know it's not that cold in the northeast yet, but I'm from CA; give me a break ).

Do I feel like I've been ripped off? No. Because I understand why I'm getting this low mileage. I understand the that Prius is trying like hell to minimize emissions, so it's not going to get great gas mileage in the first 5-10 minutes that the car is running. I understand that the EPA tests are conducted under "San Diego" conditions (i.e. rediculously comfortable temperatures)

My point is just that we do ourselves a disservice by saying "I've never gotten less than 42 MPG" (EVEN IF IT'S TRUE FOR YOU IN THIS CASE). If we're honest about what the mileage average people can expect to get under different conditions, than people will buy Prii with realistic expectations.

Now, I'm NOT saying that I think pure gas cars necessarily do better (I don't think they do), but I just think we should try to be fair about the Prius.

 

Is GM hurting? You bet. Aren't the talkingheads the same guys that were telling you to still invest in tech stocks in Feb 2001? I thought so. Just piling on as usual.

 

I think the Prius is creating dangerous expectations for itself. MOST drivers will get nowhere near the 50+ mpg that is advertised. At some point this will cause a backlash. I have seen a little of that with people trading them in lately. Again I am not bashing the Prius, just giving a differing viewpoint.

 

I actually believe that trading them in is not the right answer. I think one of the "weaknesses" of the Prius is the instant read out of the MPG. Not that I actually think it's a "weakness," but it makes you realize, "Dang! This car is supposed to be good on mileage and it's only getting 40 MPG." I think (although I will freely admit this is based on ZERO data), that most other cars will ALSO get worse mileage than they are "supposed to get" under these same conditions.

The one exception is if you are exclusively taking 10 minute trips. I think that, since the Prius is optimized for minimal emissions (i.e. NOT for MPG, although that's a nice side effect), there are going to be some times where it sacrifices mileage for emissions. In those conditions, I think that there are conventional cars that can beat it.

 

30+ mpg on average? Not possible in a Buick..any Buick. Sorry I've had them in addition to several 4c Camry's and now a Prius. Exageration doesnt put your point of view in good light.

Now if you said on long highway drives of several hundred miles or more a Buick will get 30+ mpg then it's accurate. But if the drivers who purportedly are getting 35 mpg on their Prius' ( likely 2-5 mile go-to-the-store-and-back trips ) try this in a Buick their mpg rating will be in the high teens...maybe.

This had nothing to do with the Prius or the Buick. It's a characteristic of all ICE vehicles. It's physics and the laws of nature.

BTW if you drive a Prius for a long drive on a Hwy trip it's practically impossible to get less than 40 mpg. And.. in that case you have to be doing 70+ mph and passing everyone in sight. Borrow one of the traded in Prius' on your lot and try it.

 

I will take one next week and give you a full report. Is 125 miles enough to get full experience?

 

Actually there is a greater drop in the absolute number but not in the relative efficiency. I'll explain below.

As you correctly stated your daily usage is not at all the best for obtaining EPA numbers. 3 short trips at the beginning of the day. It is an unforgiving regimen that you put your ICE/hybrid vehicle through. The basic fact is that it is an ICE vehicle. Any ICE vehicle will go through the same hell only worse if it's not a hybrid.

If you have a 4c Camry and put it through the same route as your Prius then the mpg ratings over several tanks would be in the low 20's.

Here is the key consideration about mpg ratings/fuel efficiency ( FE ). On a percentage-saved basis the Prius will out do any vehicle by 25-50% given similar circumstances.

Hybrids are ICE vehicles and are subject to the same laws of physics as all ICE vehicles.
- in colder weather it takes about 5 min for the ICE to warm up the engine, catalytic converter and the cabin - all at the same time, so it has to work more;
- in winter there is a different formulation of fuel which is less efficient;
- in winter there is often strong inclement weather e.g. going against the wind on slippery surfaces;
- changes in elevation effect fuel usage;

My last two 4c Camry's normally got 30 mpg every day on my 150 mi commute during the winter but 33+ mpg during the temperate months.

My Prius gets 45 mpg now during the winer and from reports I expect 50+ during the temperate months. In both cases I am saving 50% of the fuel I was using.
Both vehicles are about 10% less efficient in winter. But it makes sense .. both are ICE vehicles.

 

You must be an engineer or something similar.

 

The problem is that on the Maroney labes they highlight one number for this vehicle and below in small print they say other vehicles fall within the following range. They should do the reverse. Make the range

If you drive this vehicle optimally you may attain 51 mpg Hwy

 

Well, your right about the public being fickle and I know the prius won't be this hot forever in the sense of what people will put up with to buy one because production is increasing big time as batteries become available.

Actually I believe that the Prius is entering its adulthood. By that I mean that 10 yrs is a good run. 8-10 more may bring it to retirement! Huh???

I sell them and I own one. The name.. Prius.. Latin verb 'to go before'. As if the Prius is a prophet, ' a voice crying in the wilderness' if you will. It's unique stylying and content was/is intended to appeal to a very influential market segment. i.e. those well-educated, well-to-do, and concerned. Toyota discovered this segment and is minig it to perfection.

But.. the Prius is too edgy for the heart of the market. Ergo..

The HSD Camry. Everyone's boring old comfortable loafers . No one complains of the Camry being too anything accept bland. Now with the advent of the HSD Camry next year the technology hits the mainstream market and if it's as successful as the Prius and if oil is as volatile as has been BLAM the HSD Camry is everywhere!

This allows the prophet to retire gracefully having done its job and prepared the way.

 

Here is the background you're missing. And I admit this is from memory as well so I too am willing to be corrected.

In the 70's and early 80's the Japanese presence was becoming a real menace to the Big 3. Remember Lee Iacocca's visit to Japan as head of Chrysler. There was a lot of pressure for quota's on Japanese vehicles at that time. Two things happened:
HonYOta started building plants here, Marysville and Georgetown. How can you put a quota on a vehicle made in the US?

And... there was a 'gentlemens agreement' between all parties that the Japanese would not get into Big Rigs for say 20 years. This left the highest margin segment to the big 3 and forced the transplants to try to make the low margin appliance car segment profitable. Fast forward 20 yrs to 2002...

Nissan Titan/Armada... Toyota Tundra next year will be the biggest non-commercial truck in the universe ( fact ).. Honda Ridgeline.. Mitsubishi etc.

But in the interim the transplants have discoverd how to make money in the bread and butter segments. The Big 2 +C missed out on 20 yrs of demanding innovation. All their vehicles now with the possible exception of the Fusion are 'niche' vehicles to appeal to the 70-80's buyer. A corporation the size of GM cannot survive on niche products.

 

I'm still waiting to hear that response as well....maybe he 'didn't see' your post?

 

Thats my daily commute at abt 60 mph so yes it's a good test. If you use cruise you'll get abt 44 mpg on the Hwy. If you use only your input and drive to maximze the technology youll likely be in the 46-47 mpg range. If it's bitterly cold a little less initially.

You will find these ratings in 5 min segments, depending on how quickly you get onto the highway
25 mpg 1st 2-3 mi
40 mpg onto the highway
44-47 mpg constant fluctuation at speeds 55-60 mph.

Again physics begins to set in which is true for all vehicles. For every 5 mph you go over 60 you'll use 10-12 % more gas ( less efficiency ).

last 5 min segment home... dont come screeching into the parking lot.. anticipate decelerating a couple of miles away, like when getting off the highway and decelerate/coast to the end.
If you do this you will find your rating to be 75 mpg+

If this were summer time you'd likely find the highway ratings to be in the 49-52 range.

 

I was a physics major in college but got into sales and spent the next 30 years selling steel to GM, Ford and Chrysler as well as many of their subcontractor suppliers. Now I sell Toyotas. .. and play poker.

 

Actually, I have NO problem believing in a Buick that gets 30 mpg. I rented a 2003 Impala 2 years ago that I believe uses the same, small 3.8l V-6 engine as the Regal and maybe other Buicks, and consistently got 32+ mpg in the 2000 miles we drove it all over Colorado, Utah, and Wyoming. I was actually quite impressed, and have since heard from others that GM does a fairly good job at the fuel and timing maps in those cars, much better than Chrysler or Ford.
However, I find it VERY hard to believe that your Prius owning sister ALWAYS, under EVERY circumstance gets worse gas mileage than the one with the Buick, unless she lives at the North Pole. There MUST be a big difference in their driving conditions/distance, so its not a fair comparison. Any Prius that consistently gets <35 mpg, month in and month out, short drives or long, should be immediately returned to the dealer for evaluation, IMHO.
Jeff O.
Hobe Sound, FL