adding extra 4kw battery for more than double plug in miles

True enough. As mentioned in another thread, that's largely because you are buying a full PHEV conversion kit not just a battery. Its worth noting that the 10kW kit is <$8k DIY or $10.5k ready to install. That does raise the question, if you really want a PiP with 8kW might you be better off with a gen3 (or gen 2 or Prius V) + the 10kW kit? You will lose some of the nice integration features of the PiP, but could end up with more range for less money.

It will be interesting to see what prices are like when an add-on pack is designed specifically for the PiP.

Rob

 

You seem to be confusing the PIS and Enginer kits. The PIS kit is $4.5K DIY and $5.5K w/ install and has neither DC/DC converter nor battery charger. See adding extra 4kw battery for more than double plug in miles | PriusChat. The Enginer kit is $3.5K DIY and includes a DC/DC converter and battery charger.

 

That is not quite correct. The PIS kit DOES include its own charger, at least for the GEN2/3 versions. If it doesn't have one for the PIP version then the price should reflect that. I sincerely doubt that the PIP charger is tapped to charge the PIS batteries...it may tap the PIP charging port for electricity, but I don't think it would use the PIP charger.

 

But the 40 kwh version is only $50k.

The $6k buys some more electric range but with compromises, I think the main one being it's not an OEM part and I understand that these after-market setups are not quite as reliable as one might hope all the time.

Another way to look at it is that the PiP + this pack now has electric range approaching the Volt but is a lot pricier (when looking at some of the recent Volt pricing). Some people are paying as little as $6-7k total, all costs included, to drive a Volt or Leaf on 24 month leases recently. I know that's only two years, but that's an entire darn car!

The real shame is that Toyota hasn't made a larger pack an option, but then Tesla is the only company that is customizing like that. Still, if we use Lutz' recent figure on the Volt battery costing $350/kWh for the cost of a pack you can see that to increase the PiP's by a genuine 4 kWh, including parts and whatever else $3k should have very reasonably covered it, and now it's all integrated. But I guess I'm getting off topic.

Sorry for any negativity. I think the extra pack is a nice idea, and you can get them on other cars like the Leaf, but the cost is just really high IMO.

I do get the desire to minimize gas use, though, even beyond any financial argument. 55% is not bad, but with more pack you're at probably 90%+ realistically for almost all your driving.

 

Not according to jim335. From the first post in this thread:

 

The price breakdown for a PIS 4kW PiP kit is:
Battery: $1520
BMS: $1216
Controller: $1500
Battery Box: $300

It does appear you can skip the charger, which saves you $250 over the standard kit. My point was you are paying for a lot more than just a battery. That's why it seems expensive. Some of the functionality of a full PHEV kit may be somewhat redundant in a PiP, so hopefully at some point we'll see some cheaper PiP specific kits. It all depends on how much work has to be done to trick the PiP into using the additional battery capacity. If its just as hard a standard prius, the kit complexity and price will probably remain similar.

Rob

 

I agree that you are paying for more than just the battery. My issue was your original post said it's expensive because you are paying for a "full PHEV conversion kit" and the difference between a full PHEV conversion kit and a PHEV battery add on kit is the battery charger which is not part of the PIS kit under discussion.

If the battery charger is only $250, that seem unlikely. Whether the kit includes a DC/DC converter seems to be based on the kit implementation. Otherwise, the battery, BMS, controller, and battery box are required for both a full PHEV conversion kit and a PHEV battery add on kit.

Also, the PHEV battery add on kit market is smaller than the full PHEV conversion kit market (PHEV owners vs hybrid owners), the cost may be due to low volume of the PHEV battery add on kit variant.

 

FYI, PIS price breakdown is from here:
Installation Instructions | DIY Pricing | Step 1

The only listed difference in parts between the 4kW PIS kit for Gen 2/3/V and the 4kW kit for the PiP is the $250 charger. What makes the PiP kit a "full PHEV kit" IMHO is the $1500 controller that manages the PHEV operation in a non-PiP. In theory this is redundant with the functionality already in the PiP, but without access to modify the PiPs controller software we may always be stuck with having to have this additional controller even in a PiP. We'll only know if a workaround can be found once people spend some significant time hacking the PiP to see if there are any new exploitations found to get it to use the extra battery capacity. If PIS has found a way to get the built in charger to charge the add on pack that's a good step in the direction of a PiP specific kit, but not a huge cost savings compared to eliminating the controller or BMS.

The 10kW kit has significantly lower $/kW, largely because the substantial overhead cost of the all the other components is spread across more battery capacity. It remains to be seen if the 10kW kit is compatible with the PiP, or if that would make sense.

The Enginer kit does not require an equivalent controller, because it feeds power into the high voltage system in different location and doesn't have to trick the system into using the extra power stored in the add on battery. That is also why the Enginer kit is restricted to a low power output (<~16A), and uses a dc:dc converter to "throttle" the current delivered to avoid throwing DTCs. The power restriction is a direct consequence of this difference in high voltage tap location.

Rob

 

Prices on the PIS site have been in the process of being updated. The 4 kW kit DIY was $5k (or $5.5k?) when PIS was ordering all the parts (batteries, charger, etc) for direct ship to customers. This seems to have been the cause of most of the difficulties people had in getting their stuff early on, leaving PIS taking the blame for their Chinese suppliers slow delivery. The discounted DIY price reflects their new strategy of having DIY customers order these parts direct from the Chinese suppliers. They don't get any markup, but don't get stuck in the middle. The posted "ready to install" price (PIS orders all the parts and assembles the battery packs, harnesses etc) is still $6500, with installation being another $500. PiP kits would be expected to be $250 less based on the parts list cost breakdown. The RTI/Installed prices on the website may be out of date with what people are currently being told, but the DIY price seems consistent. I'm guessing the RTI/Installed prices won't come down much, as PIS is back in the position of having to pre-order the parts.

Plug-In Hybrid Conversion System Pricing | Plug-In Supply

Rob

 

What is your normal commute like? With the PIP you can't EV over 62 and 0-60 30 sec. Will you be able to stay in EV all the time? What about using the heater on short trips.

Which makes me wonder if Toyota is going to upgrade the PIP HSD to compete with the volt and Energi (but i'll make a new threat about this).

 

toyota is going to upgrade the pip, hang in there.

 

cookie, you got some insider info. we don't know about?

 

inquiring minds want to know

 

it's inevitable, isn't it?

 

Toyota may not do this(Toyota != Apple)
Here is why:
1. Rav4 Electric has good range, and they wait consumer shell out more 10k to get the carrot.
They are looking to sell more of these too.

 

i'm sorry, i don't understand.

 

I do not see any incentives for Toyota to upgrade base plug-in with some cost(under 4k).
Instead they will release 2013 or 2014 with better battery and added cost.

So why you think that Toyota will offer batter upgrades ?.