After Fire Engineer's EBH install - results.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 29 2007, 12:31 AM) [snapback]503617[/snapback]</div>

HA! Yeah, you're fine.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 28 2007, 08:27 PM) [snapback]503589[/snapback]</div>

[attachmentid=10995]
I have had the same Intermatic in-wall electronic timer running my whole house fan since I installed it seven years ago.

The left switch is a "Master on-off." On the nights I do not want the whole house fan to come on, I turn this switch off. Electrically, it cuts power to the fan, not the timer. The timer has basically been running full time for all these years.

The switch on the right is used as a "high-low" switch for fan speed.

If I were to do an EBH, I would basically do the same setup as above, except change out the switches for plug outlets - one switched by the timer, and one not.

The AA back-up batteries tend to last a long time - which has been really helpful, since power around here has not been the most reliable due to power lines not peacefully co-existing with the many large trees. The timer tends to keep correct time much better than many other electronic clocks I have.

Home Depot and Lowe's stocks them. At least the ones around here do.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(oly_57mpg @ Aug 28 2007, 09:15 PM) [snapback]503613[/snapback]</div>

I wasn't trying to start an argument. I already acknowleged that your data might be more acurate than mine, and simply asked you how you took your measurements. Sorry I wasn't aware of your superior intelect and infalability.

Here is the reference Heat Games. They don't go into detail about what instrument was used. I didn't reference it earlier because I didn't have it bookmarked.

"The heater draws about 3 amps at first, which seems to gradually drop to 2.5A
as the heater itself warms up and its resistance changes. "

When was your last Electronics Class?

Even if the EBH is wire wound, for my ball park figures, it is safe to assume the PF is very close to 1.

Ohms Law V=IR

P = IE

Put them together and P = V^2/R

When resistors get hot, their R goes up. When R goes up, P must come down in proportion.

Do you think the EBH instantly reaches a steady state temperature as soon as you plug it in? My waffle iron doesn't work that way. I don't know of any heating appliance that comes on and almost instantly reaches a steady state current.

Do you think the EBH only reaches the same temperature as the rest of the engine block? Maybe you better brush up on Physic too.

Like I said, I will get a meter and measure for myself. I never said I would be using an amp meter.

The meter you used sounds like it might have been overkill for measuring such a small load. If it was designed to measure power use of large scale production equipment, then maybe it was not designed to measure loads of small household heating appliances.

Did you have it set for 1 Phase or 3 Phase? Was it calibrated for a Delta or a Wye connection at the distribution trasnformer? Are you sure you were high enough within the scale to expect an acurate result? Meters are generaly considered to be used outside of their accuracy limits if they do not read at least 10 percent of full scale. It is like trying to measure the thickness of a sheet of paper with a yard stick.

I am not necessarily saying you didn't use the meter correctly, but htere is no reason to start an attack on me.

And I was just kidding with GODIVA about pluging three Prius EBHs into her timer. I knew she doesn't plan to do this, and I was not trying to imply that her house wiring or anything else was inadequate.

Please forgive me for posting to your thread.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 28 2007, 11:04 PM) [snapback]503662[/snapback]</div>

That works too.
I just hate to short myself on the number of outlets if/when they are basically just as easy to install.

I wish I would have listened to that little voice in my head and gone ahead and installed four duplex outlets in the wall behind the entertainment cabinet when I added insulation and re-sheetrocked the livingroom. Well, at least I did add conduits from another four gang box to the crawl space and attic for phone/cable/etc. It looks like a dang office back there with cat-6 outlets, coax, and phone.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Sufferin' Prius Envy @ Aug 28 2007, 11:45 PM) [snapback]503667[/snapback]</div>

Yeah, that is a very good point.

I actually took a peice of 4 by 8 siding off the outside of my house because it had been damaged, and while it was off, I installed another duplex for the Entertainment center, but I should have installed at least two. I have all my video distributed to the whole house from the main entertainment center and I think there are three power strips back there. Thank goodness the new receptacle I installed was on a separate circuit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(treehggr @ Aug 28 2007, 02:32 PM) [snapback]503358[/snapback]</div>

treehggr,

Could you explain what you mean by going straight into S4. I know what S4 is I am just not sure how it goes straight to it, how do you know? I have a block heater but do not get the coolant that warm and am wondering what would happen if I left it longer. I know I should try it but seeing as you mentioned it was curious of you experience. Also does the coolant temp drop when you start. the reason I ask is that I fit a UK EBH which is in a different place on the block.

Thanks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(gazz @ Aug 29 2007, 02:01 AM) [snapback]503673[/snapback]</div>

Gazz,

Here is what I do each morning. I go into the garage and start up my car then go and unplug the EBH. I allow the car to cycle the engine on then off. As soon as it's off I start backing out of my drivway. When I start driving I am able to glide at any speed (Is that not S4? I may be thinking of S3). Anyway, when I enter my car to turn it on my scangauge reads roughly 155-160 degrees. When the engine cycles on the coolant temp will rise at a considerable rate. When the engine shuts off the coolant is about 165-170 degrees. Oh and the engine stays on for about 20-30 seconds and my ambiant temp is usually between 80-90 degrees (good old AZ).

How long are you leaving your EBH on for? I think 3-3.5 hrs is the norm. After that there's not much of an increase in temp.

Also can anyone verify if I am infact in S4 or S3? Thanks

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(treehggr @ Aug 29 2007, 08:58 AM) [snapback]503701[/snapback]</div>

At any speed? Your temperature is climbing quickly enough to get to S3 in short order (not surprising, given your climate), which allows glides to begin at speeds of 34-40 MPH. But S4 typically requires the so-called "idle check" routine where the car has to stop completely with the ICE idling until it shuts off spontaneously, generally 5-10 seconds. Until then, the ICE will not shut off during any glide that begins at speeds below 34 MPH.

That is my experience and that of others here, anyway. If you're truly able to get into a glide at, say, 30 MPH early in the drive before the idle check, then I haven't seen that reported.

 

Jimbo, I am able to glide at any speed. As soon as I put my car into drive after the ICE has shut off I accelerate to 20 mph and glide down to the stop sign. The ICE is completly off. So I must be in S4 then.

 

Second day of using the EBH Wayne installed. Didn't look closely enough at the first days results. This morning first 5 minutes were 55 mpg, second 5 minutes were around 48, hard to get accurate with the mfd bars but I'm very happy with the EBH. Ambient temp in garage was probably around 75. Much of my first 5 minutes are slightly downhill and glideable. Second 5 are mostly uphill and 45 mph. Upon initial startup I did not let the car sit with the engine running, I just started driving it. My whole commute of around 25 miles this morning was excellent on mpg, the traffic was flowing just right and that second 5 minutes was the only one below 50.

After 360 miles the guess gage is at half, I might be on to my first 600 mile tank! But that's on my first BGT (Barfing Gas Tank) fill so I'm uncertain how accurate the gage is reading. It would be nice to know what that's all about.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(treehggr @ Aug 29 2007, 09:23 AM) [snapback]503735[/snapback]</div>

That is how my car behaves, but I am not getting that warm so it is in S2, therefore it will glide at any speed until it reaches 70C then I have the 34mph S3 issue until I can stop to get to S4.

I have noticed that if I EV drive through the S2 to S3 point it will continue to glide until the ICE comes on, maybe that is what you are getting, the car behaves like S4 but is at S3 temperature but acting like S2 so it will continue to glide. Think I confused myself now.

Gary

 

Lol. Sounds a little confusing. What temp does the coolant have to be to hit S4. When I exit the driveway my temp is at about 170 as I said before. Can we calculate the stages off of temp alone as long as the engine has cycled on and off once?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(treehggr @ Aug 29 2007, 10:23 AM) [snapback]503735[/snapback]</div>

Hmm, interesting. Here then is a mostly uneducated theory: Because, between the warm Arizona temperatures and the EBH temperature boost, you're at S3/S4 temps after the S1 warmup, the warmup and S4 idle check processes "merge," so to speak. Or maybe the car never cools below 158F (the transition threshold from S2 to S3/S4) at all, with the same effect as restarting after a short power-off period in cooler environments.

Thoughts from others (without straying too far off-topic)?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimboK @ Aug 29 2007, 08:37 AM) [snapback]503782[/snapback]</div>

Jimbo, If no one else ends up chiming in what I'll do is check the coolant temp this Saturday morning because I don't run the EBH over the weekend and see what temp the car actually cools down to overnight. That will at least give us a little idea as to what might be happening. I am happy it's doing what it's doing though B)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(JimboK @ Aug 29 2007, 10:37 AM) [snapback]503782[/snapback]</div>

Perhaps that by letting the ice shutoff before driving it is doing the idle check in that step so it no longer needs that check to get to s4.

(or is that what you said)

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 29 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]503662[/snapback]</div>

And neither was I... I have a tendency to be a bit snarky. Especially when I see something wrong...

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 29 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]503662[/snapback]</div>

An ammeter I assume. (Why Hobbit?!) You can't verify Amp readings on AC... You still need the PF.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 29 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]503662[/snapback]</div>

Yes, yes, yes... But:
VA = E * I
W = E * I * pf
or
pf = W / VA

Whatever the case may be... the EBH draws much closer to 400 Watts than 333 or 350.
My Watt reading was calculated from six minute intervals for eight hours. The equipment takes samples at 32kHz.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 29 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]503662[/snapback]</div>

Na... Scaling is not an issue. A Watt is a Watt no matter What.
Watt-hour metering is what the power company charges. Why would I measure with something other than what a power utility would charge me for?!

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(NoMoShocks @ Aug 29 2007, 02:04 AM) [snapback]503662[/snapback]</div>

Wow... A little high strung are we?
The Watt-hour meter I used is single phase. It's calibrated to Radian Research, Inc. equipment. Radian is the North America industry leader for watt-hour reference standards. It was calibrated with the Radian RD-21.

Please post your results! Now I'm curious if I have an EBH that draws more power than others...

This post reminds me of xkcd strip today:

 

Are any of you also using the front grill blocks along with the EBH during the summertime?

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Aug 29 2007, 02:25 PM) [snapback]503864[/snapback]</div>

Almost the same here... Although our temps are in the 50s at night, I don't block in the summer - just all winter and spring.