Ah Death penalty, thou art never wrong...

The guy that breaks my window and steals the pillowcase off my bed to carry the VCR he's stolen from my house to trade for a fix is antisocial. He shouldn't be out in a few months.

I don't want his wrist slapped. I want him locked up. If he can't stop stealing, then I don't want him let out. Ever. And I don't want to pay for him to have three square meals a day, the best health care money can buy, warm clothes, a warm bed, etc. when there are honest, hard-working people that don't have those things. I don't want him tortured or punished. If he's a third striker he's proven he cannot be rehabilitated. And I don't want to pay for a life of him being isolated from me.

I won't dispute the racism of the judicial system. Cocaine should have the same penalties as crack. Cocaine is used mostly by whites, crack by blacks, so whites get off and black go to jail. But I'm not talking about users. I'm not talking about Johns. Or hookers. Or people who bounce checks.

I'm talking about major offenders. Rapists. Murders. Dealers. Gang members.

Sorry, I have no sympathy for gang members. Tookie earned the consequence he received.

The death penalty wouldn't cost so much if it wasn't for the ten years of lawyers' fees and court costs. That's what costs so much. Not the food, clothing, guards and cable TV. The appeals are rarely about did he do it or not. They're whether the Is were dotted and the Ts were crossed. They're about technicalities. They're trying to avoid the consequences of actions that the adult in question knew were wrong, but did anyway.

And the third strikers are never "innocent". You don't get sent to prison three times by accident or mistake. Once rarely. Twice no. Three times? Absolutely not.

Outsourcing prisons to private "for profit" companies is as stupid as school vouchers. Outsourcing prisons is about profit. Private companies are paid a fee and they try to make a profit by providing the service for less than they're being paid to do so. An instance of privatizing and free market being not good for society. Not everything should be about profit. Prisons are one. Education is another. Medicine is a third. Next thing you know we'll privatize the Police and Fire Departments to for profit corporations. Totally stupid.

There are tons of opportunities to get training, get a job, get straight, get on track, get help. If you're an adult and you make the wrong choice three times in a row, I don't want you out in a few months breaking in to my house to steal what I've worked hard for. I pay money to my government to protect me from that happening. And reducing someone's sentence because the prisons are too crowded and the government is too cheap or too inept to do anything about it sends a clear message.....go ahead and commit crime. Even if you're convicted, there are no consequences. That's bad discipline.

Maybe every lawmaker should be required to own a dog. Then they'll learn about discipline.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(MegansPrius @ Jan 20 2007, 06:12 PM) [snapback]378457[/snapback]</div>

Take the libertarian approach: simply quit jailing people for drug offenses. Decriminalize all drugs, and let the natural order of things weed out the drug users.

That won't stop the robberies that are done to support a drug habit, but those are crimes in and of themselves that can be punished.

Back to the death penalty, the most powerful argument against it is the inevitability of caprice and mistake in applying it. It is inevitable that the wrong person will be executed at some point. Is that acceptable?

 

You don't kill a dog for peeing on the carpet three times.

But if a repeatedly bites people, it is put down.

If a dog is learning to socialize, you keep working with it.

If a dog refuses to change any of it's antisocial behavior it is considered "unadoptable" and put down, for the safety of people.

We have a clearer view of our animal control system than we do of our penal system.

Maybe the politicans should butt out of education and turn themselves to goals, standards and accountability in the penal system. It will keep them busy and may in the long run save money and even benefit some people.

I don't believe in letting 1000 murders go free in case one of them is "innocent". Since the "innocents on death row" has gotten so much press, maybe someone can find the statistics on how many are/have been on death row and exactly how many of them have been proven innocent. I think it would also be worth exploring the definition of innocent. Like he murdered someone, but not the person he was convicted of murdering. Or he didn't swing the baseball bat, just held the victim down so his buddy could do it. Or whatever. Or if the conviction was based on a confession that was coerced by TORTURE (which is in another thread.)

Personally, I'd like every death row inmate DNA tested. And I'd like DNA testing to be mandatory in Death Row convictions. A positive should take care of the a lot of the subsequent costs regarding appeals.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 20 2007, 09:53 PM) [snapback]378421[/snapback]</div>

Well, well. People are agreeing with WildKow and I am agreeing with Daniel. What is the world coming to? I know you might find it ironic, Daniel, but it is my religious beliefs that make me against the death penalty and against many of the current practices of the correctional system.

I concur with all you said Daniel. Speaking from my experience working in the Texas state prisons, it is not fun and is not a cakewalk. The focus is definitely not rehabilitation and the while there is some "help," it is generally few and far between. It is not surprising that based on the way prisoners are treated, what they have to experience inside, and the stigma of being out a convicted felon, that few turn from a criminal lifestyle.

If a person has done the crime, then punishment is in order. But the act of locking them away is the punishment, not denying them basic needs (a lot don't have anything close to warm clothes or a warm bed) and treating them like animals until they are released. Not to mention steps taken to help the person become a contributing member of society. Yea, there are some who will never change no matter what is done. I think there are a lot more things that could be done for those that do want to change.

I am a firm believer that crime has both personal causes and societal causes and I think both need to be addressed. Neither is being addressed by the current correctional system.

 

Godiva: You are describing a very small percentage of prison inmates in the U.S. if only those you describe were imprisoned, we'd have so few prison inmates we'd have to convert most of our prisons to some other use, as most of them would be nearly empty. You make the common mistake of believing Hollywood's fictional representations of prison and prisoners, and of characterizing all prison inmates as a homogeneous class. This is simply not the reality.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(micheal @ Jan 21 2007, 02:11 AM) [snapback]378612[/snapback]</div>

Not ironic at all. The death penalty and our present penal system violate the most basic precepts of every major world religion. What I find ironic is when people who claim to be religious support the death penalty and/or draconian punishments for "criminals."

But thank you for your confirmation of what I said.

BTW, the anti-death-penalty movement is dominated by people of faith. (Though it includes many atheists as well.) Even the Catholic Churth hierarchy, so reactionary on so many issues, categorically opposes the death penalty.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 20 2007, 11:35 PM) [snapback]378595[/snapback]</div>

No, they are about important legal and constitutional safeguards that were put in place to minimize the chances that innocent people will be executed.

Only a few months ago, a Texas death row inmate was exonerated after residing seventeen years on death row. Yes, it took that long for the truth to surface. But for his attorneys perseverance, another innocent human being would have been executed for a crime he did not commit.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(daniel @ Jan 21 2007, 12:06 PM) [snapback]378671[/snapback]</div>

So you're saying that most of our prisons are full of "petty" criminals.

Sorry, but I don't buy that.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(IsrAmeriPrius @ Jan 21 2007, 01:44 PM) [snapback]378723[/snapback]</div>

And 20 year ago when this was happening in Texas, was he tortured into making a confession? Was he denied DNA testing? Did the police basically frame him through neglect, incompetence, laziness or racism?

Hmm. Who was Governor of Texas then?

 

In order to have more than just philosophical support for the death penalty, you have to also have absolute and complete faith in our legal system; that the administrative side of the process works correctly every single time, and that no where in the system is a single case of racism, cronyism or "prosecution for personal gain" as is being alleged in the Duke Rape case.

Mark Fuhrman, the infamous LAPD detective who did indeed use the N-word, was a conservative cop fully in support of the death penalty. He is now a "true crime" author, and has changed his position on the death penalty because of the cases he has investigated where men were sentenced to death with flimsy evidence that even he would not bring to a DA.

The problem with the death penalty, in my view, is not that it isn't deserved, or that society doesn't have a right to impose the sentence. While I respect those views, they are not in accordance with the majority of Americans who view those convicted of capital crimes as worthy of the ultimate punishment. The people that did those crimes do deserve to die. And then they deserve to go to hell (if God so chooses). The problem is that the death penalty is irreversible, and we cannot correct a mistake made in the process.

The stunning release of dozens of death row inmates when DNA evidence became acceptable, 17 in Illinois alone, should give everyone pause.

Drug offenses make up about 21% of the prison population, and non-violent property crimes another 20%. Nearly half are there for violent crimes, although the definition of "violent crime" varies by jurisdiction (sometimes a combination of factors ... such as a residential burglery with a pocketknife in your pocket is considered "violent" even if the pocketknife remains in the pocket, or a theft from a garage when people are home).

From http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/crimoff.htm

When looking at the stats, remember that "jail population" is different from "prison population", with jail populations including those waiting for trial, and convicted of relatively minor offenses. I think the idea that over half the people "in jail" are there on drug charges stems from this misunderstanding. Over one third of the people in jail or prison were drinking or on drugs when the crimes were committed, so that stat often gets thrown in there as well. The Bureau of Justice Statistics is probably the best source for stats on these things, since they do try to take into account all of the reporting agencies and states.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 21 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]378740[/snapback]</div>

I've been there. I've lived with them. Admittedly, only in four prisons in the Federal prison system and several different county jails in three states.

But I speak from experience. And an educational and eye-opening experience it was.

Sadly, most Americans get their impression entirely from TV, which is interested only in sensationalism or entertainment. A movie showing what prison is really like would be so boring it would not make back even 1% of the money spent to make it.

 

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE(Godiva @ Jan 21 2007, 11:37 AM) [snapback]378740[/snapback]</div>

The factors that you list are at the very heart of most death penalty appeals. The Texas inmate I mentioned was released after DNA tests were finally conducted. Most prosecution agencies fight tooth and nail to prevent post conviction DNA tests in cases where those were not conducted due to any number of factors, some cases were tried before the technique was perfected and in others the courts refused to fund such testing for indigent defendants. That brings to mind another travesty, in many states lawyers who are appointed to represent defendants in capital cases are cronies of the judges who appoint and pay them; in some cases attorneys were paid as little as $1,200 for the case, including preparation and out of pocket expenses. Remember the case of the sleeping drunk defense lawyer a couple of years ago?

By the way, George W. Bush was not elected governor of Texas until 1994, so you cannot blame him for all that is wrong with the death penalty in Texas.

Since 1973, 123 people in 25 states have been released from death row with evidence of their innocence.

Death Penalty Information Center

(That site is not quite up to date, the newest cases of exoneration are not yet listed there.)