1. Attachments are working again! Check out this thread for more details and to report any other bugs.

Alcohol fuels for PHEVs

Discussion in 'Other Cars' started by Trollbait, Apr 27, 2016.

  1. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,843
    11,384
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    Gasoline, over time, will go bad. Its component parts will oxidize, break down, or even evaporate away. This leads to lower octane, and the formation of gums and varnishes that clog the fuel system and possibly damage engine components. I don't know how much that is true of diesel, but I do know that bacterial growth in it can lead to clogging the fuel filters and lines.

    The sealed and pressurized fuel system of a car prevents and delays some of those issues. Yet a PHEV that stays in EV mode for too long will eventually result in wasteful maintenance cycle to burn off some of the old fuel. As PHEVs gain longer EV range, the more often these cycles occur.

    So I started wondering if alcohols go bad in the same way as gasoline and diesel. I know liquors go bad, but that is mostly the compounds that give it flavor have 'turned'. So do methanol, ethanol, and butanol breakdown into components that will harm the engine in time?
     
  2. wjtracy

    wjtracy Senior Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2006
    11,317
    3,588
    1
    Location:
    Northern VA (NoVA)
    Vehicle:
    Other Hybrid
    Model:
    N/A
    I would think conventional gasoline could be additized or formulated for longer life if in fact that is needed. The biggest problem I see is E10 fuel mix can fall apart upon exposure to water...the E10 mandate sort of assumes not holding fuel in your tank for 6 months.

    As far as pure alcohol as substitute I am not familiar with long term storage issues if any. I'd assume it is technically feasible to use alcohol alone, but it comes down to $$ feasibility. I am not sure freeze point of butanol. There is always something that must be engineered around. The pure alcohols might be OK but then trace contaminants come into play.

    Bill Gates has a long term project to make the fuel of the future, and he is talking about making it a liquid, since the energy density and transportability is so good for a liquid...say butanol since it is 90% gaso energy. This is of course controversial view.
     
    #2 wjtracy, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2016
  3. Trollbait

    Trollbait It's a D&D thing

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2006
    21,843
    11,384
    0
    Location:
    eastern Pennsylvania
    Vehicle:
    Other Non-Hybrid
    I think the issue is potential phase separation; too much water and the water and alcohol mix separates from the gasoline. Get to E30 or higher, and it is no longer an issue.

    The 6 month bit might be for gasoline in general. Lawn mower manuals were saying not to use last seasons fuel before the ethanol mandate.

    The freeze or melt point of butanol depends upon the isomer. n-Butanol, the most common, is in the negative 120's Celsius, while t-butanol can be solid at room temperature. It can be said that the trace chemicals of gasoline and diesel are the issue. Neither is a pure compound, but a mix of various hydrocarbons. Being pure is likely why an alcohol would work out, an is actually easier to design engines for. They have been around, either straight or as flex-fuel, for awhile. Methanol is common for racing, and Brazil has E20 to E100 flex fuel cars. I think Honda once announced the development of a E0 to E100 flex fuel.

    Cost is the issue, but I'm looking long term at PHEVs that are long EV range, when Phevs and hybrids are more common in general. The lower demand and need for the fuel would hopefully make paying more for something renewable socially acceptable. Alcohols could face some of the same infrastructure issues as hydrogen though.

    An issue might not be the fuel, but with the other side of the maintenance cycle. Circulating the oils and fluids can be done by the electric motor. Still an inefficiency, but electricity can be made with less baggage than the liquid fuels. But perhaps the engine needs to warm up for something. Perhaps to boil off trace water in the oil, but where does that water come from? Some might work its way into the crankcase as condensation, but wouldn't most of it come in with the air charge and the combustion process. Then the water is bad because it can form acids with the scorched particles that form in the oil, which should be reduced with the use of ULSG, and alcohol fuel is sulfur free to begin with.

    Why would that be the controversial view? There are downsides to using high pressure gases. One of which is that the heavy, bulky tanks limit car design. I haven't heard of anyone suggesting using coal dust in diesels, and emissions isn't a sole reason for that. The liquid fuel doesn't have to be of the future as it is put. Renewable diesel and gasoline are already possible. As with alcohols, it is the issue of costs.
     
  4. bhtooefr

    bhtooefr Senior Member

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2016
    1,396
    1,489
    0
    Location:
    Newark, OH, USA
    Vehicle:
    2016 Prius
    Model:
    Three
    Isobutanol also has lower volatility than gasoline or ethanol (lower VOC emissions, slower degradation), and less water solubility than ethanol...
     
    #4 bhtooefr, Apr 27, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 27, 2016